Finally the Roatan Marine Park gets a clue

[RTBDiver]

First, the lionfish invasion started with an aquarium damaged during hurricane Andrew in Miami.

This is one hypothesis but by no means is there anything to suggest this is fact, there are many other hypothesis and speculations as well

Lionfish have predators in the Atlantic. Not only are lionfish believed to be their own predator, but the jewfish, Goliath grouper, or whatever, should be a predator of them. E. itajara is a spiny food specialist, as is E. quinquefasciatus, which is what the Pacific version of the jewfish is now called. .

Of course we do not see much of a population of Jewfish/Goliath Grouper around the Bay Islands

Removing lionfish from a reef is like getting rid of cockroaches from a house (in the tropics!). First, for every one you see, there is at least ten more hiding out of sight. Second, they live and breed in places that are inaccessible. .

Cant get rid of the cockroaches altogether but we can certainly control them and be very efficient in keeping them out of certain areas.

 

[CODMAN]

If they do have a pelagic larval/ juvenile phase (sorry, haven't had time to read up on their life cycle), then jellyfish will probably turn out to be better predators thatn fish like mahi-mahi or groupers. Although many Atlantic species SHOULD in theory be predators of these fish, only time will tell if they actually incorporate lionfish into their diet (and I don't mean by handfeeding). Hopefully they will...

First, the lionfish invasion started with an aquarium damaged during hurricane Andrew in Miami. According to NOAA studies, six or seven lionfish were responsible for the entire Gulf Stream invasion. Many people believe there was a second major release from the aquarium at the Atlantis Resort in the Bahamas, again due to a hurricane.

The fact that the Atlantic lionfish have almost no parasites strongly indicates aquarium release not bilge water transfer or anything like that.

The study where it was said that ‘one lionfish removed almost 80% of the small reef fish in a couple of weeks’ is so flawed as to be laughable, except that people keep quoting it. You have to have a baseline that is meaningful in order to talk about the reduction in population. The reefs have had their fish populations altered drastically by overfishing, what that study really showed was a correction of a horrendous overpopulation of small reef fish.

Lionfish tournaments demonstrate how ineffective kill programs are. Look at the Cozumel numbers; they took two thousand fish from a very small area that was already patrolled. I would bet that if you did a sunset dive in that same place the next day you would observe similar numbers still on the reef.

This brings me to the biology of the lionfish. Lionfish spend at least the first ten months of their life in the open ocean, probably drifting in the Sargassum mats. As they approach their first birthday they listen for ‘noisy’ reefs and swim towards and colonize them. Kill all you want, the next wind that blows weed near the reef, it will rain juvenile lionfish. No study has been done, but my strong suspicion is that Mahi-mahi (or whatever you call them locally) preys upon these fry in the open ocean. (we need more Mahi-mahi in the open ocean)

It has been reported that large lionfish eat the small ones (by the same guy that reported that 80% thing) which, if true, means that the best way to control lionfish population density is to leave the large lionfish on the reef so they can patrol and remove the incoming colonizers. All kill programs target the big ones first, it is human nature. When large numbers of small lionfish colonize, they grow up together creating dense populations.

Lionfish have predators in the Atlantic. Not only are lionfish believed to be their own predator, but the jewfish, Goliath grouper, or whatever, should be a predator of them. E. itajara is a spiny food specialist, as is E. quinquefasciatus, which is what the Pacific version of the jewfish is now called. There are many reports of correlation, lots of Goliath Groupers, no lionfish. We need more Goliaths in the ocean!

Removing lionfish from a reef is like getting rid of cockroaches from a house (in the tropics!). First, for every one you see, there is at least ten more hiding out of sight. Second, they live and breed in places that are inaccessible. Third, over their life history they are neither territorial nor stationary and they travel over vast distances. Last, they are small and don’t aggregate in a vulnerable fashion.

Oh, DM’s should be doing their JOB! Which is NOT spear fishing.

The entire Atlantic from Massachusetts to Venezuela was colonized by a release of six or seven fish in just eighteen years! To me, this means that the best way to deal with them is by general conservation to create a healthy environment where the lionfish will be ‘just another fish’ as they are in the Pacific.

 

[Sloeber]

The fact that the Atlantic lionfish have almost no parasites strongly indicates aquarium release not bilge water transfer or anything like that.

Can you explain this in more detail please? Generally speaking, aquarium fish are considered to be infested with parasites, and is the general reason why aquarists are asked to not release captive fish into the wild (Caribbean fish). Mostly this is because most aquariums lack any natural predator of parasites (gobies, wrasses, juvenile butterflies, shrimp, etc). Additionally, the lack of parasites on a recently harvested lionfish would indicate it is getting cleaned by the shrimp and fish at the cleaning stations, not that it was recently released from an aquarium.

The study where it was said that ‘one lionfish removed almost 80% of the small reef fish in a couple of weeks’ is so flawed as to be laughable, except that people keep quoting it. You have to have a baseline that is meaningful in order to talk about the reduction in population. The reefs have had their fish populations altered drastically by overfishing, what that study really showed was a correction of a horrendous overpopulation of small reef fish.

Since you found this study to be seriously flawed I'm left to assume you have read it in detail. Can you link it for the rest of us to read? If the study was done by a legit marine biologist and published I'd be shocked if it didn't attempt to form a baseline of sorts. Reef/fish surveys are done regularly on the same reefs - I don't think it would be too difficult for a professional to put the numbers together and form an opinion.

Lionfish tournaments demonstrate how ineffective kill programs are. Look at the Cozumel numbers; they took two thousand fish from a very small area that was already patrolled. I would bet that if you did a sunset dive in that same place the next day you would observe similar numbers still on the reef.

Effectiveness is debateable. Taking 2000 lionfish off a reef may not dent their overall numbers, but what it did do is remove 2000 hungry bellies. If those lionfish eat just 1 goby, or 1 seahorse per day, in a week we saved 14,000 fish. In reality we know they eat more than 1 fish per day.

This brings me to the biology of the lionfish. Lionfish spend at least the first ten months of their life in the open ocean, probably drifting in the Sargassum mats. As they approach their first birthday they listen for ‘noisy’ reefs and swim towards and colonize them. Kill all you want, the next wind that blows weed near the reef, it will rain juvenile lionfish. No study has been done, but my strong suspicion is that Mahi-mahi (or whatever you call them locally) preys upon these fry in the open ocean. (we need more Mahi-mahi in the open ocean)

Beyond Mahi-mahi, most juvenile fish will eat them in their platonic stage - especially the little fish those lionfish grow up eating. Thus the more hungry mouths we remove, the more little fish we save, the more little fish there are to eat the platonic stage of lionfish. Additoinally, corals and jellyfish will consume platonic larvae.

Lionfish have predators in the Atlantic. Not only are lionfish believed to be their own predator, but the jewfish, Goliath grouper, or whatever, should be a predator of them. E. itajara is a spiny food specialist, as is E. quinquefasciatus, which is what the Pacific version of the jewfish is now called. There are many reports of correlation, lots of Goliath Groupers, no lionfish. We need more Goliaths in the ocean!

Unless I'm mistaken, the fish you mention are consider highly endangered species. Probably not wise to count on near-extinct fish to help control an out-of-control situation. Maybe in 20 years we can credit a lionfish invasion in saving the Goliath, but until then it's premature to think they will be an effective weapon in controlling numbers.

 

[Fred R.]

Great post, but I'd venture 50% of it is disputable and / or at best unverifieable / subject to interpretation.

That's why I use words and phrases like 'it has been reported' and 'it is believed'.

 

[Fred R.]

This is one hypothesis but by no means is there anything to suggest this is fact, there are many other hypothesis and speculations as well

This is or was the official story of NOAA, published by the best scientists they could hire.

Of course we do not see much of a population of Jewfish/Goliath Grouper around the Bay Islands

Which is exactly why I believe it is more important to spend our efforts in conservation and protection of this magnificent creature.

Cant get rid of the cockroaches altogether but we can certainly control them and be very efficient in keeping them out of certain areas.

We are actually very inefficient at controlling cockroaches and can only do so using poisons, that have far reaching effects on other organisms including ourselves. This is why so many toxins that were used on cockroaches have been taken off the market. To make matters worse cockroaches develop tolerances and resistance to these toxins much quicker than we do.

 

[RTBDiver]

This is or was the official story of NOAA, published by the best scientists they could hire..

Fred, you posted this as fact, Not as it is or was type of thing, can you post a link to where these scientists feel this is difinative?

Which is exactly why I believe it is more important to spend our efforts in conservation and protection of this magnificent creature...

And just what efforts are you making ? Far easier to let locals profit off the killing of Lionfish as you cant really think the majority of anyone catchong a jewfish in third world waters will throw it back do you?

We are actually very inefficient at controlling cockroaches and can only do so using poisons, that have far reaching effects on other organisms including ourselves. This is why so many toxins that were used on cockroaches have been taken off the market. To make matters worse cockroaches develop tolerances and resistance to these toxins much quicker than we do.

Maybe you have a roach problem but I have very few in either my tropical home on roatan or my subtropical home in Florida. Sure they are outside but this was never about eliminating completely, Whatever we use can't be all that bad as the Anoles and gheckos seem to be just fine, the few I do see get a size 11 on top of them, kind of like the lionfish could get a spear.
We have never mentioned poisoning the lionfish but when a round up can collect them into the thousands it sure doesn't help their population. For a long time atlantic spadefish were becomming almost overabundant and while they never paid a lot at the market some savvy spearfisherman caught on and nailed thousands of them in short order, less per pound but certainly made up in volume. Heck, I guess we could also say we could never control the golf balls in the water either as people will continue to hit them in the drink, but low and behold, the ponds and lakes get cleaned out and people make a living diving for them. Just think about what has a better chance, telling very poor folks with a family who may not even eat every day that they cannot keep that giant jewfish that they may feed off of for a long time, worms or not, or explaining to them how to catch and prepare a food source such as lionfish.
Years ago around the Islands people would have told you how abundant Iguana's were and they would never have a problem with population but low and behold..... Heck, South Florida say's they have an iguana problem but the solution is the same as that for lionfish, Let those that can eat and profit from them hubt them. Will they be totally eliminated? Of course not but certainly can be controlled to varying degrees.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

We cannot give a spear to anyone that walks into our office, whether they are from the United States, Honduras, or elsewhere. The spears are distributed to people that fit criteria set by the DIGEPESCA, mainly that they be a PADI Divemaster or Instructor. We have also distributed a few spears to individuals that are not PADI professionals but live in places where no one dives. Many islanders that work as diving professionals have purchased spears and use them on every dive. [/FONT][/COLOR]
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So, I am really not trying to start anything here, however, I am curious. Only PADI DM's or Instructors? So You won't accept dive professionals from other agencies? Why is that?

 

[Fred R.]

Can you explain this in more detail please? Generally speaking, aquarium fish are considered to be infested with parasites, and is the general reason why aquarists are asked to not release captive fish into the wild (Caribbean fish). Mostly this is because most aquariums lack any natural predator of parasites (gobies, wrasses, juvenile butterflies, shrimp, etc). Additionally, the lack of parasites on a recently harvested lionfish would indicate it is getting cleaned by the shrimp and fish at the cleaning stations, not that it was recently released from an aquarium.

You are talking about ecto-parasites, the 'outside' ones, essentially lice and leeches. I am talking about endo-parasites, the inside ones. These are numerous and very tightly tied to the ecosystem from where they come. They are also generally very species specific. There are parasites that come in the food supply, like tapeworm and nematodes, parasites that drill in through the skin like schistosomiasis, and parasites that are injected through the skin, like malaria. There is even a fish parasite that eats and replaces its host's tongue and functions as a tongue while living off the host's blood supply.

Aquarium fish rarely have these parasites. Their food is either cooked or frozen, which eliminates most of the ones in food, their water is either filtered or created from fresh and blood suckers are not usually kept in the aquariums.

Since you found this study to be seriously flawed I'm left to assume you have read it in detail. Can you link it for the rest of us to read? If the study was done by a legit marine biologist and published I'd be shocked if it didn't attempt to form a baseline of sorts. Reef/fish surveys are done regularly on the same reefs - I don't think it would be too difficult for a professional to put the numbers together and form an opinion.

The study was done by a biologist who was doing genetic studies on reef fish. The lionfish ate his subjects. All he did was count how many fish were no longer on a reef head after lionfish appeared on that reef head.

Effectiveness is debateable. Taking 2000 lionfish off a reef may not dent their overall numbers, but what it did do is remove 2000 hungry bellies. If those lionfish eat just 1 goby, or 1 seahorse per day, in a week we saved 14,000 fish. In reality we know they eat more than 1 fish per day.

You didn't save any fish. You killed thousands of invertebrates needed for the health of the reef. Due to overfishing, the population of small reef fish has exploded out of control. These small reef fish are in reality causing conditions that is killing off the coral that actually makes the reef.

Beyond Mahi-mahi, most juvenile fish will eat them in their platonic stage - especially the little fish those lionfish grow up eating. Thus the more hungry mouths we remove, the more little fish we save, the more little fish there are to eat the platonic stage of lionfish. Additoinally, corals and jellyfish will consume platonic larvae.

Actually, almost nothing is KNOWN about the planktonic stage of lionfish. I believe they are living in sargassum mats, which would make them inaccessible to many of the predators you mention.

Unless I'm mistaken, the fish you mention are consider highly endangered species. Probably not wise to count on near-extinct fish to help control an out-of-control situation. Maybe in 20 years we can credit a lionfish invasion in saving the Goliath, but until then it's premature to think they will be an effective weapon in controlling numbers.

Once again, you make my point. Spend the effort to conserve the Goliath. The lionfish is not really the problem. A food web with major pieces ripped out is.

I live in an area that is one of the first coral reefs to be invaded by the lionfish. I've done well over 2,000 dives with them, after spending over 13,000 dives observing the reef without them. I have observed signs of improvement in the health of the coral of the reef in the years since the lionfish have entered the ecosystem.

 

[Sloeber]

Edit... Fred responded as I posted my quesitons...

 

[RTBDiver]

Fred,
Can you post some links to these studies you mention?