Cave diver dies in South-East (Australia)

[Jax]

So many things we don't know. The articles state that Dr Harris is a close friend of Agnes Milowka, and has seen the body. Articles also state that the soft surfaces of the cave will cause zero vis quickly, and takes hours to clear.

[Surmise] Perhaps there was some other indication that she became disoriented in zero vis . . . perhaps the signs of a lost line search? [/surmise]

Q for cave divers - what sort of things might Dr Harris have seen that would lead him to the statement Agnes Milowka was disoriented?

 

[Tortuga68]

I'd say the fact she ran out of air 600m back was a good clue she got lost

Why don't we wait and let him or the other recovery divers tell us instead of trying to guess

 

[Jax]

I'd say the fact she ran out of air 600m back was a good clue she got lost

"Getting lost" does not make logical sense, given the extensive experience of this accomplished diver.

Why don't we wait and let him or the other recovery divers tell us instead of trying to guess

1 - because we often never get the rest of the story, forget the 'whole story'.

2 - when we do get more information, many times there are more questions than answers

3 - discussing the possibilities is why this forum exists, AFAIK

 

[Tortuga68]

I don't find it hard to believe she got sepearated & lost in a silt-out, based on the limited information known - have you seen the maps of this cave system?

Regarding 1 & 2, you could I think at least wait a day or two until they (hopefully) recover the body, at which time there will almost certainly be more information available than we have now

There's only lessons to be learnt if there's something to base them on... If you want to learn how not to get lost in a cave, or what to do if you do, that infomation is already readily available

You know perfectly well most of these threads become unreadable because of the volume of spurious posts they attract - I'd like to see what information we have to work with first

 

[tstormdiver]

"Getting lost" does not make logical sense, given the extensive experience of this accomplished diver.

It can make perfect sense Jax. Just because a cave diver is experienced, doesn't mean there can't be a circumstance(equipment failures, the diver, other divers, natural causes) that they can't (although shouldn't) get lost off the line. That is why cave training is (or should be) so difficult,... why we are taught to always stay within sight of the line,... where you can get to it in a few fin kicks, to tie off to the line if we want to go elsewhere off the line, why we learn & practice lost line drills, lost diver drills, lights out drills, OOA drills. It is the thinking that because they are experienced, that can get them killed. It's called complacency. I am in no way saying this is what did or did not happen,... at this point, no one knows. Just because someone is experienced, doesn't mean Murphy can not come knocking.

 

[Jax]

It can make perfect sense Jax. Just because a cave diver is experienced, doesn't mean there can't be a circumstance(equipment failures, the diver, other divers, natural causes) that they can't (although shouldn't) get lost off the line. That is why cave training is (or should be) so difficult,... why we are taught to always stay within sight of the line,... where you can get to it in a few fin kicks, to tie off to the line if we want to go elsewhere off the line, why we learn & practice lost line drills, lost diver drills, lights out drills, OOA drills. It is the thinking that because they are experienced, that can get them killed. It's called complacency. I am in no way saying this is what did or did not happen,... at this point, no one knows. Just because someone is experienced, doesn't mean Murphy can not come knocking.

Thanks - it helps understanding this, and explaining to others whose first reaction is, "Holy smokes, I'm never going in a cave."

 

[netmage]

The rules we have for cave diving represent the cumulative knowledge to give you the best chance of survival. They are most certainly not absolute, and things can always happen.

Please also keep in mind.... Ag was an explorer. In all likelihood she was exploring with knotted line in hand; thus the concept of being 'lost' kinda falls to the wayside.

Given the statements about recovery divers reaching Ag, and the notable dives like Rock Bluff and connection of Baptism to Peacock, it's not too much of a leap to speculate she got stuck someplace.

Is there a lesson to learn from this event...? I'm not sure it needs to be codified in the rules, or represents anything 'new'... At the level Ag represented - explorers will always explore; and push beyond what is known; they do so well aware of the risks. To us mere mortals the lesson is one of caution; if it can happen to the Ag's, Wes or Carl Spenser, folks at the top of 'the game', we are most certainly not immune.

-Tim

 

[roughwater]

Q for cave divers - what sort of things might Dr Harris have seen that would lead him to the statement Agnes Milowka was disoriented?

The map provided is a little deceptive in that it doesn't show the lines, markers, etc that is extensive through out this system . This cave site is well marked with permanent lines, arrows, distance markers to the surface, etc.

If my experience with the Australian media in the past decade is anything to go by, I would say that there is a good chance that Dr Harry has been misquoted, or 'chopped' in ways that don't really reflect what he would have been really trying to say.

In the same article that says she was not stuck, it also says she was working at "extricating" herself.

From this, I don't believe that she was simply 'lost' in the system, trying to find a route out. She's way too experienced a diver for that, and as mentioned previously, if this was the case it should be relatively easy for other divers to get to her, which it hasn't been.

One possibility I've thought of is that she may have been pushing through into a new section down a very tight tunnel that she was not able to turn around in, and she may have tried backing out, but because of the tightness and features may have kept hitting a wall on her way out with all the silt, etc. (If anyone has ever tried to back out of a tight section after running a line in, they're aware that it's not easy to realize 'which direction' the line necessarily turns behind you), especially when it silts out.

So maybe the body is not "stuck" (aka Jammed), but she couldn't find the right orientation to be able to back all the way out, and being such a small person other divers aren't able to go where she went without digging away?

This is of course only conjecture. Until we have all the facts we can only best guess with the little information we have to start with. I wasn't going to post anything, but I think statements that indicate that Agnes simply got 'lost' in the system (making it sound like she 'lost' her way) isn't fair to her true gift and abilities.

 

[naclydogg]

Diver's body recovered from SA cave

 

[Texas Torpedo]

Thanks for the update.