Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation

[Crush]

...dive to a ship wreck at 60 feet ...14yo and I dove the second sight that day and went back down to 50 and had a great time.

Seems to me that a 14 yo cannot be a PADI OW diver - s/he had to be a Junior OW diver and would have had their diving depth restricted to 40 ft because of the hypothetical risk of damage to growth plates.

 

[tt5five]

Thanks for all the great info. Trying to shorten it for a board, I may have been a little unclear but all your points are well received and right on point. We were watching our air pressure and using the 1/3 example, signaled the DM at a proper point to turn and go back. (I still will work on this as it seems we were still too lax on this.) Our biggest mistake was continuing to follow the DM. (He was a very experienced DM with lots of dives and lots of certifications hanging on the wall. Instilled a lot of confidence in the earlier dives.) In showing the DM our numbers and signaling a desire to surface, we were urged to proceed. I assumed we were just about to turn around and this experience DM knew what he was doing. (I Know what happens when you assume.) It was a DM in Baja Mexico and we will not be returning. I can say that the dives before and after were great. Thanks again for all the comments and education, and not being too hard on a new diver.

 

[BrianKon]

Hello tt5FIVE,

I gotta agree with everything else said here. There is one more tidbit that should help you in future dive planning.

low air/out of air situations are the leading cause of air embolisms. Having adaquet air supply trumps getting back to the anchor line.

If in a postion where perhaps you could'nt get back to the anchor line without putting yourself in danger. especially on a deep dive or dives with excessive current, the safe dive plan says to acsend at a safe rate, do your safety stop (with 500psi) and upon surfacing establish positive bouyancy. At this point inflate your safety sausage, and blow your whistle to get boats attention. float until you get picked up. (I hope you have this basic safety gear)

This is a dive scenario of actual occurance(s) and has been determind that getting safely to the surface is better practice then putting yourself in a low air situation.

I would hope you got a debriefing from the DM as to what happened and a plan for how to handle those types of situations in the future.

All in all, I believe you learned a great deal from your experience, your quest for additional information will be sure to make you and your boys better and safer divers.

There is a great article in this month DAN magazine about just this topic and deep diving... you may be able to read the article on thier website.

have a great day!

 

[a22shady]

As others stated when doing a dive against a current you always start going into it. Another thing to remeber the deeper you go the faster you use your gas. One thing to help aid yourself besides checking Air more frequently and having a set-turn pressure. I would start carrying a Pony bottle. Go out and get yourself a Luxfer 40Al and sling it as a pony. In the water they are about nuetral and once you start swimming you forget it's there (in a good way). Carrying this bottle is by no means calculated into your dive you still base your dive off only your primary cylinder. This should only be used in an emergency except for practice.

Carrying this serves a lot of purpose's, First if you should have an issue you breath off it. If either one of your son's run that Low they can breath off it get settled and then Hand the whole bottle off to them and clip it off so they can exit. Also helps conserve your Air, and makes it easier to swim since your not so close. I personally would not getting anything smaller than an Aluminum 40 as with this size it should provide enough gas to make a "safe" ascent without rush and complete the neseccary safety stops.

But again the object is too avoid the Low on air situation, however malfunctions can happen at anytime whihc is why carrying a redundant source is a good idea

 

[tt5five]

Thanks for the continued comments. We got no debriefing from the DM. I am really starting to see why now - he acted like he did not even want to talk about it. The lack of a debriefing was why I came here and am so glad I did. I am now seriously irritated that I was encourage to follow after showing my initial numbers and signaling to return, but also irritated with myself. I can say that on the second dive, I and 14yo did surface at a proper pressure. Will be getting wet again in June and will be a lot wiser.

 

[Cave Diver]

I would start carrying a Pony bottle. Go out and get yourself a Luxfer 40Al and sling it as a pony. In the water they are about nuetral and once you start swimming you forget it's there (in a good way). Carrying this bottle is by no means calculated into your dive you still base your dive off only your primary cylinder. This should only be used in an emergency except for practice.

Without getting into the whole Pony vs. No Pony argument (there are plenty of those discussions elsewhere on the board already) I feel compelled to caution a newer diver about using this method. There is already a degree of task loading and apprehension until they gain a little more experience. Having another piece of gear to deal with may increase that.

Learning some basic gas management skills can increase their confidence and safety until they reach a point where they are able to make an informed decision about pony use.

Additionally, they may want to try requesting larger tanks until they settle down some and gain some experience to help with the "air hog syndrome."

 

[Charlie99]

Your story is a good example of potential miscommunications and problems on guided dives. There aren't any easy answers.

The DM is trying to lead a group of divers with different air consumptions and for some reason didn't want to turn the dive when you hit the turnpoint (actually you were past it because of the current).

Your choice at that point is to 1) assume that the DM knows what he is doing, or 2) to bail out with your buddy and return to the ascent line, or 3) do a drifting ascent and stop.

#3 is a bad choice in high current if you do not have a DSMB.

#2, in hindsight is what you should have done. You probably hesitated to split off from the group because you thought the DM knew what he was doing. For all you knew, the DM might have been headed for an upline on the downcurrent end of the boat.

Bailing out of the group can also disrupt the dive for the rest of the group, making you more reluctant to split off.

It all comes down to your safety, though, and although it can be difficult to do, you need to take action proactively to keep from starting a cascading series of problems that turn into an emergency.

It's always tempting to try and complete the dive as originally planned rather than aborting, but every time I've continued when I'm in doubt, I've regretted the decision. This includes times where I had luck on my side and did manage to complete the dive as planned, but with 20-20 hindsight knew the wiser course of action would have been to abort or terminate the dive early.

All we can do it to look back at our decisions, see what we should have done, and try harder to take timely action in the future.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

We were watching our air pressure and using the 1/3 example, signaled the DM at a proper point to turn and go back. (I still will work on this as it seems we were still too lax on this.)

@tt5five: FYI, there are lots of situations in which using the rule-of-thirds for gas planning might be too conservative or not conservative enough for a recreational diver. You really need to take logistical and environmental factors into consideration. In this case, significant current was present so padding your gas numbers would be appropriate and using techniques to deal with the current (remain on the sheltered side of the wreck, begin dive into the current, don't stray far from the ascent line, etc.) might have helped. It can be difficult to do all of this if the DM is leading the group without taking these things into consideration.

Our biggest mistake was continuing to follow the DM. (He was a very experienced DM with lots of dives and lots of certifications hanging on the wall. Instilled a lot of confidence in the earlier dives.) In showing the DM our numbers and signaling a desire to surface, we were urged to proceed. I assumed we were just about to turn around and this experience DM knew what he was doing. (I Know what happens when you assume.) It was a DM in Baja Mexico and we will not be returning. I can say that the dives before and after were great. Thanks again for all the comments and education, and not being too hard on a new diver.

First of all, experience doesn't necessarily ensure good judgment.
Perhaps the DM should have instructed you to ascend earlier.
In the DM's defense, perhaps he was operating under the assumption that you were a certified diver and were responsible for your own gas management.

I'm not sure if I would cite this incident as reason not to patronize a particular dive op. Nevertheless, there really should have been some discussion in the form of a post-dive debriefing about what went wrong and how to avoid such situations in the future. Usually such a post-dive debriefing is facilitated by the diver with the most experience and training. Since the DM was in a position of authority, it would make sense for him/her to lead the debrief.

For the sake of completeness, if we are looking for parties to blame, it wouldn't be unreasonable to include your OW instructor in the conversation. One of the most important things a scuba instructor can teach a student is to dive within the student's training and experience. Abdicating responsibility for one's gas management presumably goes against the training your instructor provided.

I'm really glad that things turned out well for everyone involved. Following the DM blindly is something that many divers are guilty of, so you're definitely in good company. I remember my first warm water dive vacation in Cozumel several years ago. The DM was leading our group of relatively inexperienced divers through a series of short swim-throughs. Sounds like fun, right? Well, a couple of the divers sustained injuries from a loss of buoyancy control inside the swim-throughs. One guy suffered a head wound that bled fairly impressively. I was definitely guilty of following the DM blindly through the swim-throughs. After the guy cut his head open, I reassessed what I was doing and realized that I didn't need to do the swim-throughs -- my buddy and I could simply wait for the group to exit on the other side. Those dives became a lot less stressful and more enjoyable. I didn't have to go through a cloud of silt that the diver in front of me kicked up inside the swim-through. I found that when I wasn't so focused with navigating the swim-through, I could pay more attention to the larger aquatic critters (spotted eagle rays, sharks, etc.) which swam by on the outside of the reef.

 

[FuzzyNutz]

After reading through most of the comments, I gather you understand the potential risk that was involved, and like you said, you will enter the water a bit wiser next time. I'll share with you a similiar story of mine:

I was learning to use a DPV during my advanced course. I check my air regularly, and when I hit my ascending point, I let my instructor know. He signalled ok and to keep following him, so I did. We kept going for a while, and now my gauge was reading about half of what it did when I first let him know, so I let him know again that it was time to go up, now! He again signalled ok and to keep following... so I did. I was getting really nervous at this point, and was thinking to just head up by myself. A few moments later, a breath took a bit of effort to pull out of the reg. I looked down and my gauge read empty. I panicked. I tried finning faster to catch him (he was only about 10-15' in front of me), so I could use his octo. With both of us on DPV's, I was not going to catch him. I took the reg out of my mouth and tried to scream his name, a really moronic idea, but what can I say, I panicked. I realized the danger I was in and that I was panicking, so I got my head together, and started ascending. I kept the reg in my mouth, took large breaths, and slowly let bubbles out on my way to the surface. I think I only took 3-4 breaths on my way up, as I was deathly afraid of running out of air completely. It was very hard to draw those breaths.

When I reached the surface, I waited for a short few moments, then started swimming back to the beach where I waited for him. He finally surfaced and saw me standing on the shore, made it back, and explained that he was aware of my situation and he was just about to stop to give me his octo to finish out a safety stop, but when he turned to look for me, I was gone - so he circled around a few times to find me before surfacing. I'm glad I went up myself and I was mad we didn't go up sooner. I learned a valuable lesson that day, and I'm glad it happened early in my diving career. It made me a much wiser diver, and I pay critical attention to a lot more things now. If I need to end the dive and my team won't, well sorry to say, but I'm out, see ya! I like what is preached by cave divers and by people on this forum: When someone thumbs a dive, the dive is over. No ifs ands or buts about it. I don't care if it's a slight ear issue, air issue, spooked out for a second, whatever. The dive is over with no questions asked or explanations needed (although I would prefer an explanation so I could learn from the incident - but by no means would it ever be critcized... ever!) . The underworld is a deadly environment and things can go bad very quickly with horrible consequences.

It's good everything turned out ok and you learned from this experience. Safe diving to you!!

 

[seaducer]

Again, I would point out that there is a difference between ascent pressure and turn pressure. To most of us this is probably just semantics, but since this is in the New Divers Forum I feel it's important for us to be accurate in our definitions to avoid confusion.

I don't think you are abusing semantics at all. If I am reading the incident correctly, the OP first signaled that they wanted to turn at 800 pounds, and still had to fight current on the return leg. That really should be ascent pressure and not turn pressure, especially with a current.

Had the OP left the guides he and his kids might have still had that LOA problem with far fewer options.

I am glad things worked out and that the OP has indeed recognized that there are lessons here.

• Gas management, up to individual divers to monitor and communicate gas as well as knowing when to turn the dive.
• Knowing how to work the current to your advantage or at least minimize it as much as possible.
• Recognize that a DM is not always going to make the perfect decisions for you UW.
• Be able to plan your own dive independent of the DM/group and execute that plan if things are not going your way.
• Be equipped to make a dive safely on your own. Carry an SMB and be able to deploy it should they have to make a free ascent on their own. Do not rely on others (even DMs) to manage all the safety gear.

Another lesson that most experienced divers have learned at some point or another is that the term Dive Master can be both misleading and intimidating, but you can still execute your own plan. You do not have to do what they say at all times. Most Dms are used to divers ascending on their own when their dive is done so never feel like you have to stay down if they don't react to your pressure getting low.

I would advise the OP, this scenario and many many others are here ad nauseum on Scuba Board, the shame of making this mistake is that you might have learned these lessons by reading of others first. Take some time once you absorb this dive and search through the archives, it is always best to learn from others mistakes if you can.

Again, glad everything turned out OK. It is only a waste and something to be embarrassed about IF you don't take anything away from it. I think I can speak for most experienced divers when I say we have all done something at some point that we wish we didn't, the key is not making those mistakes a second time.