It would seem to me that, as we gain experience and go through some minor glitches on dives, we should increase our capacity to tolerate issues underwater. I'm wondering what could cause an experienced (say, more than 200 lifetime dives) diver to become distressed enough to lose rational thought. Has anyone here (who meets those criteria) been through a panic event? What caused it, and what did you do?
Question Panic in the experienced diver?
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JCAT
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Didn't know it had a name until now.
Not something that I've ever discussed with anyone, nor heard from anyone else.
I've experienced slight narcosis/fuzzy thinking around 100fsw, but this dark narc thing only once.
Reading about others feelings of apprehension/dread has helped my understanding of what it was.
Now I know it's name.
Thank you Thal.
dumpsterDiver
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We went to grad school in Gainesville and I took my girlfriend back into a cave one day. I had done a few cavern dives with other people, but had received absolutely no training.
Of course I had years of dive experience in the ocean and was a PADI dive instructor at the time.
Dont remember the cave Peacock or orange grove maybe, but it has a pretty big horizontal tunnel that is maybe 10 ft diameter and pretty level and not to deep, maybe 40 or 60 feet or something, I dont even recall that now. If you swim like 1000 ft you come to another spring (from what I was told).
We had regular open water gear, think we had 3 lights and no redundancy. I explained that we we going to go down a ways into this tunnel and it was way to far to swim out if we had a problem, so she understood we were going to stay together.
She was a little nervous and made me promise we would turn the dive if she got scared. We had no reels (hell we werent trained to use them anyway).
Both of us are very good openwater divers. We enter, find the tunnel and start going down it. We are going slowly, very relaxed, over 100 ft visibility and we know to stay off the silty bottom. This is not the least bit scary AT ALL.
We are heading down this tunnel and we are getting pretty far, maybe 350 feet? Im not sure, but it was getting right to the limit where the light coming down the tunnel was starting to fade. This seemed to be a simple tunnel no turns or branches or anything.. seemed like a giant pipe to me. We were both super relaxed.
I remember turning around and seeing the very dim glow of the exit light and thought that it was about time to turn around. She had been swimming very slowly right next to me, She knows not to do stupid crap and move away from me or over top of me or something silly.
I look back at the light, slowly spin around and look forward and she is gone. I have taken my eyes off her for 5 seconds and in 100 ft visibility (and she has a light obviously) she is freaking GONE!
I am almost instantly totally freaked. I know that this is how people get killed by kicking the bottom up in a panic, so I intentionally rise up a few feet to make double sure I dont make a mess.
I am spinning around looking back and forth down the tunnel one way then the other, I can see a long way and nothing. I am now panicked. I spin around frantically looking back and forth, and then I suddenly realize that I can see NO light from either end of the tunnel and I am now totally confused as to which way I came. I am baffled how she could disappear AND that I can no longer see light and the way out, but the water is still crystal clear with over 100 ft visibility. I am thinking very bad thoughts. I had never even checked a compass heading, because hey it was just a simple tube with light at the end. I am totally confused as to what happened.
I think I just froze there for a few more seconds and then all of a sudden she arises out of a small hole or crack in the floor or wall ( I forget). She has been gone only 20-30 seconds, but it seems like an eternity to me. I guess that she was breathing so slowly that every time I spun around I must have missed her bubbles. She was 110 lbs and didn't breath anyway. She was totally calm and had just ducked into this little hole. I am freaking out signaling which way, which way is out, my heart is absolutely pounding
She gives me a stupid look, since she was not spinning around like an idiot and pointed the way out without the slightest hesitation. As soon as I dropped down just a few feet toward her, I could suddenly see the exit light as we started to swim.
I then understood that my instinct to rise up and avoid the silt out, put a piece of slightly lower hanging ceiling between me and the light coming down the tunnel (it had been pretty faint) and that is why I couldnt see the light. We had been swimming down the center of the tunnel.
I was completely amazed that I could panic so quickly and spin around 5-6 times like a fool and loose my bearings completely.
Later that day, 2 divers went into the cave without cave gear and they both drowned and we got to watch as another diver (their friend) ascend and tell the guys wife and 5 yr old that dad and the women buddy were dead just maybe 200 ft from the surface. She begged him to bring him up and try to do CPR, but he refused and said they were dead. They had been in the water less than 30 minutes total time. The women was just totally freaking out.
They had entered the spring with regular recreational gear and they were wet and had only half filled tanks, since they had been diving another local spring. I was diving solo in the spring probably 75 feet from where they were dying. I saw them enter the cave and I followed and hung out in a main room (very well lit) and they went down a vertical, wide crack and made another turn and apparently silted it out and got lost at the junction of three smaller tunnels. I had been to the exact same place by myself earlier in the day, alone. Can you believe people are that stupid?
Of course I had years of dive experience in the ocean and was a PADI dive instructor at the time.
Dont remember the cave Peacock or orange grove maybe, but it has a pretty big horizontal tunnel that is maybe 10 ft diameter and pretty level and not to deep, maybe 40 or 60 feet or something, I dont even recall that now. If you swim like 1000 ft you come to another spring (from what I was told).
We had regular open water gear, think we had 3 lights and no redundancy. I explained that we we going to go down a ways into this tunnel and it was way to far to swim out if we had a problem, so she understood we were going to stay together.
She was a little nervous and made me promise we would turn the dive if she got scared. We had no reels (hell we werent trained to use them anyway).
Both of us are very good openwater divers. We enter, find the tunnel and start going down it. We are going slowly, very relaxed, over 100 ft visibility and we know to stay off the silty bottom. This is not the least bit scary AT ALL.
We are heading down this tunnel and we are getting pretty far, maybe 350 feet? Im not sure, but it was getting right to the limit where the light coming down the tunnel was starting to fade. This seemed to be a simple tunnel no turns or branches or anything.. seemed like a giant pipe to me. We were both super relaxed.
I remember turning around and seeing the very dim glow of the exit light and thought that it was about time to turn around. She had been swimming very slowly right next to me, She knows not to do stupid crap and move away from me or over top of me or something silly.
I look back at the light, slowly spin around and look forward and she is gone. I have taken my eyes off her for 5 seconds and in 100 ft visibility (and she has a light obviously) she is freaking GONE!
I am almost instantly totally freaked. I know that this is how people get killed by kicking the bottom up in a panic, so I intentionally rise up a few feet to make double sure I dont make a mess.
I am spinning around looking back and forth down the tunnel one way then the other, I can see a long way and nothing. I am now panicked. I spin around frantically looking back and forth, and then I suddenly realize that I can see NO light from either end of the tunnel and I am now totally confused as to which way I came. I am baffled how she could disappear AND that I can no longer see light and the way out, but the water is still crystal clear with over 100 ft visibility. I am thinking very bad thoughts. I had never even checked a compass heading, because hey it was just a simple tube with light at the end. I am totally confused as to what happened.
I think I just froze there for a few more seconds and then all of a sudden she arises out of a small hole or crack in the floor or wall ( I forget). She has been gone only 20-30 seconds, but it seems like an eternity to me. I guess that she was breathing so slowly that every time I spun around I must have missed her bubbles. She was 110 lbs and didn't breath anyway. She was totally calm and had just ducked into this little hole. I am freaking out signaling which way, which way is out, my heart is absolutely pounding
She gives me a stupid look, since she was not spinning around like an idiot and pointed the way out without the slightest hesitation. As soon as I dropped down just a few feet toward her, I could suddenly see the exit light as we started to swim.
I then understood that my instinct to rise up and avoid the silt out, put a piece of slightly lower hanging ceiling between me and the light coming down the tunnel (it had been pretty faint) and that is why I couldnt see the light. We had been swimming down the center of the tunnel.
I was completely amazed that I could panic so quickly and spin around 5-6 times like a fool and loose my bearings completely.
Later that day, 2 divers went into the cave without cave gear and they both drowned and we got to watch as another diver (their friend) ascend and tell the guys wife and 5 yr old that dad and the women buddy were dead just maybe 200 ft from the surface. She begged him to bring him up and try to do CPR, but he refused and said they were dead. They had been in the water less than 30 minutes total time. The women was just totally freaking out.
They had entered the spring with regular recreational gear and they were wet and had only half filled tanks, since they had been diving another local spring. I was diving solo in the spring probably 75 feet from where they were dying. I saw them enter the cave and I followed and hung out in a main room (very well lit) and they went down a vertical, wide crack and made another turn and apparently silted it out and got lost at the junction of three smaller tunnels. I had been to the exact same place by myself earlier in the day, alone. Can you believe people are that stupid?
OP
DD, I can more easily see panic in a cave than panic in OW, maybe because I think a lot about problems in caves. My goal for cave diving is never to be frightened in a cave, let alone panicked.
In open water, where the surface is always an option (sometimes not a great one, but always available) it's harder to see an experienced diver just plain losing it. At least it is for me. I have been stressed and very unhappy in the water on a number of occasions, but not since my 2nd OW dive have I come really close to the total loss of rational control that is panic.
In open water, where the surface is always an option (sometimes not a great one, but always available) it's harder to see an experienced diver just plain losing it. At least it is for me. I have been stressed and very unhappy in the water on a number of occasions, but not since my 2nd OW dive have I come really close to the total loss of rational control that is panic.
Kevrumbo
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Alternobaric vertigo still is a chronic nuisance ailment for me at times, especially during a deco gas switch (kind of difficult identifying the right deco bottle when the whole universe is spinning). However, combined with a Dark Narc and/or an emergency contingency scenario, the situation can literally spin out-ot-control with resulting cognitive overload and panic.
Refraining from too much Solo-Tech Diving and having cognizant & competent dive buddies has been a prudent course of action over the years. . .
Refraining from too much Solo-Tech Diving and having cognizant & competent dive buddies has been a prudent course of action over the years. . .
I don't know the reasons leading to this thread but even though most experienced divers may not have full blown panic that doesn't mean they won't/can't make a mistake that gets them hurt/killed.
We know that people with 200 or more dives have suffered from AGE due to holding their breath on an ascent. We may think the only way that could happen would be to panic but apparently it's possible to do just due to poor judgment in a stressful moment.
I think it's too easy to look at an AGE situation and conclude they must have panicked and therefore it won't happen to me because I won't panic. Maybe they just had poor judgment under stress. That is something that is more likely to happen with any of us.
We know that people with 200 or more dives have suffered from AGE due to holding their breath on an ascent. We may think the only way that could happen would be to panic but apparently it's possible to do just due to poor judgment in a stressful moment.
I think it's too easy to look at an AGE situation and conclude they must have panicked and therefore it won't happen to me because I won't panic. Maybe they just had poor judgment under stress. That is something that is more likely to happen with any of us.
dumpsterDiver
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Well if you don't like that story,
, this weekend I about freaked when bullsharks started rushing at me when they were amped up from feeding. I was in open water, alone, ascending from 180 feet, with 20 minutes of deco and in an attempt to rise above the shark feeding activity, I kinda panicked a little and exceeded the recommended ascent rate. The situation was not in my control.In open water I have had several instances where I was out of control and approaching panic due to sharks coming in on me and me having to fight them off... once even using my fists, because I had nothing else. Another time I was so scared as multiple sharks rushed at me with mouths open, I just shot to the surface in a panic when I should have probably tried to fend them off. Who knows why I didn't get bit that time. Super aggressive sharks are a very real concern for me and I know that they can induce panic in this experienced diver.
A few years ago, while freediving, we had an aggressive, big shark come shooting up at me and my buddy (on the surface) and a 4 ft baracuda that I had speared (which was on the spear and line), was panicked by the shark causing the cuda to try to hide between our legs as the shark tried to eat it. My very experienced (scuba and freedive) buddy totally panicked on the surface and jumped on my back and shoved me underwater using me as a human shield from the shark.
I also witnessed a friend get shot by a speargun, when an extremely experienced scuba instructor panicked at the surface due to an aggressive shark and accidentally fired a speargun up out of the water.
Reaching the surface does not always mean safety nor a remedy for panic.
Other than the cave incident, I think most all of my UW panic situations have been associated with sharks.
Actually thought of a few more times when I have totally freaked when diving.. there was the alligator in zero vis, getting tangled with an oxygen bottle suspended from the surface and beating me on the head in rough seas.....
I believe some people are more prone to panic but everyone has a threshold. I also believe that the threshold can be pushed back. For me concentrating on the issue/problem at hand does the trick. If you start thinking about the what if's you can easily panic, I also find talking to myself and talking through the issue really helps.
I was in my advanced wreck penetration class and came very close to panic. We were about 30 inside the wreck and came to a small room we then took a hard left that lead to a very tight passage. This passage was shaped like a triangle and was very tight meaning no way not to scrape your tanks along the whole passage. On the other side was an open room that was near the opening we had entered the wreck from, we could have gotten out of the wreck there if we wanted. However my line was run through the passage behind us. The instructor gave us the turn sign and my buddy looked at me like is he serious. The passage was now completely silted and I gave my buddy the ok. He re entered first as I was running the line, about half way through my line went taunt. I pulled hard but it was stuck my first thought was drop the reel or cut the line (I cannot even see my 21watt HID at this point). But I stopped and thought, I had lots of gas and was in no real danger so I backed up and followed the line it was only about two feet back. I felt around and realized it had caught on some steel rods on the floor they felt like rebar. I tried to untangle it but was having no luck, I then pulled up on the bar to see if I could back the line off the bar. In doing so I cut a small hole in my glove and got my hand stuck!! This was an oh $h!t moment and I felt I could have panicked, I again stopped took a few deep breaths and thought well if I got my hand in there I can get it out. I took my other hand and pried the bar up more breaking it off. This not only freed my hand but the line also and I swam aft to the small room where the vis was a little better and my buddy and instructor where waiting with wide eyes.
After we got out the instructor told us in all his years using this wreck no one ever went back into the silted passage and he never thought we would.
Next time the line gets cut!
I was in my advanced wreck penetration class and came very close to panic. We were about 30 inside the wreck and came to a small room we then took a hard left that lead to a very tight passage. This passage was shaped like a triangle and was very tight meaning no way not to scrape your tanks along the whole passage. On the other side was an open room that was near the opening we had entered the wreck from, we could have gotten out of the wreck there if we wanted. However my line was run through the passage behind us. The instructor gave us the turn sign and my buddy looked at me like is he serious. The passage was now completely silted and I gave my buddy the ok. He re entered first as I was running the line, about half way through my line went taunt. I pulled hard but it was stuck my first thought was drop the reel or cut the line (I cannot even see my 21watt HID at this point). But I stopped and thought, I had lots of gas and was in no real danger so I backed up and followed the line it was only about two feet back. I felt around and realized it had caught on some steel rods on the floor they felt like rebar. I tried to untangle it but was having no luck, I then pulled up on the bar to see if I could back the line off the bar. In doing so I cut a small hole in my glove and got my hand stuck!! This was an oh $h!t moment and I felt I could have panicked, I again stopped took a few deep breaths and thought well if I got my hand in there I can get it out. I took my other hand and pried the bar up more breaking it off. This not only freed my hand but the line also and I swam aft to the small room where the vis was a little better and my buddy and instructor where waiting with wide eyes.
After we got out the instructor told us in all his years using this wreck no one ever went back into the silted passage and he never thought we would.
Next time the line gets cut!
Well if you don't like that story,
In open water I have had several instances where I was out of control and approaching panic due to sharks coming in on me and me having to fight them off... once even using my fists, because I had nothing else. Another time I was so scared as multiple sharks rushed at me with mouths open, I just shot to the surface in a panic when I should have probably tried to fend them off. Who knows why I didn't get bit that time. Super aggressive sharks are a very real concern for me and I know that they can induce panic in this experienced diver.
A few years ago, while freediving, we had an aggressive, big shark come shooting up at me and my buddy (on the surface) and a 4 ft baracuda that I had speared (which was on the spear and line), was panicked by the shark causing the cuda to try to hide between our legs as the shark tried to eat it. My very experienced (scuba and freedive) buddy totally panicked on the surface and jumped on my back and shoved me underwater using me as a human shield from the shark.
I also witnessed a friend get shot by a speargun, when an extremely experienced scuba instructor panicked at the surface due to an aggressive shark and accidentally fired a speargun up out of the water.
Reaching the surface does not always mean safety nor a remedy for panic.
Other than the cave incident, I think most all of my UW panic situations have been associated with sharks.
Actually thought of a few more times when I have totally freaked when diving.. there was the alligator in zero vis, getting tangled with an oxygen bottle suspended from the surface and beating me on the head in rough seas.....
Where these experiences all in the same neighborhood ?
This has been a subject of interest to me for years. I am no expert on how panic control is achieved, beyond rational thinking and experience arguments. My career gave me the opportunity to observe a lot of divers with exceptional panic control and here are my unscientific observations:
It is very difficult to separate genetic and learned factors. People who have exceptional control over their emotions are probably more likely to be attracted to high stress work, such as commercial diving and military Special Forces (where a lot of commercial divers come from). One common trait that I have observed is what casual observers describe as fearless. Having been closer to many of these personalities, I think that is misguided.
The exceptional people I have seen are calm by nature and self-confident, but far from the adrenaline junkies. They are determined/borderline stubborn by nature. It is almost as if dying underwater would be too embarrassing rather than concern over dying itself. That (I think) drives a professional level of physical and mental preparation. The best divers obsessively rehearse each move and alternative plans in their minds.
One experience that I believe helped me, and is fairly common among these individuals, is we have experienced hypoxic blackout from breath holding. Mine was driven by ignorant determination. Unlike me, it is possible to safely experience hypoxic blackout. I was just really lucky that it became a learning experience. It happened to me while "training", described in this long story version:
Everyone knows how horrible and panic inducing CO2 buildup can be, though untrained people think of it as low Oxygen. With practice, you can learn to mentally manage these symptoms and increase tolerance. This is one of the many skills learned in freediving courses. Once you realize that there is a really long time between that horrible feeling, which passes, and actually passing out; it is much easier to stick with the basic premise above.
This is not an invitation to be a dumb ass like I was. Take a good freediving course rather than experiment on your own. It will make anyone a better Scuba diver, mentally and physically.
It is very difficult to separate genetic and learned factors. People who have exceptional control over their emotions are probably more likely to be attracted to high stress work, such as commercial diving and military Special Forces (where a lot of commercial divers come from). One common trait that I have observed is what casual observers describe as fearless. Having been closer to many of these personalities, I think that is misguided.
The exceptional people I have seen are calm by nature and self-confident, but far from the adrenaline junkies. They are determined/borderline stubborn by nature. It is almost as if dying underwater would be too embarrassing rather than concern over dying itself. That (I think) drives a professional level of physical and mental preparation. The best divers obsessively rehearse each move and alternative plans in their minds.
The basic premise is you are far less likely to die if you think and react carefully — even if it is up to the point of blackout.
One experience that I believe helped me, and is fairly common among these individuals, is we have experienced hypoxic blackout from breath holding. Mine was driven by ignorant determination. Unlike me, it is possible to safely experience hypoxic blackout. I was just really lucky that it became a learning experience. It happened to me while "training", described in this long story version:
Everyone knows how horrible and panic inducing CO2 buildup can be, though untrained people think of it as low Oxygen. With practice, you can learn to mentally manage these symptoms and increase tolerance. This is one of the many skills learned in freediving courses. Once you realize that there is a really long time between that horrible feeling, which passes, and actually passing out; it is much easier to stick with the basic premise above.
This is not an invitation to be a dumb ass like I was. Take a good freediving course rather than experiment on your own. It will make anyone a better Scuba diver, mentally and physically.
Randy43068
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