Jill Heinerth training video

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

Well, I'm an experienced instructor with over 250 cave dives. And, I see so much going on in that video that can't be excused.

Carry on with the drivel...

I am an inexperienced diver with about 25 cave dives. Allowing for the fact that this is in a high flow cave where conventional wisdom is you go in negatively buoyant and potentially crawl your way in, what am I missing?

We have mentioned the line entanglement already, but Jill was right there to address the physical issue and lets presume she picked up on line awareness after the dive. We have also discussed that the gear conforms to standards (which we may or may not agree with).

I have just watched the video again with a critical eye. Yes there is a flutter kick here or some sculling there, but for a first ever dive in a cave which is also high flow - not bad.

 

[LiteHedded]

i guess if they're not getting caught with blow these days cave instructors aren't doing half bad.

 

[TSandM]

Moonglow, if that were students finishing the class, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. Nobody should cave dive like that. And I certainly hope that, by the end of the class, they didn't.

In classes, I have done some things I am really glad weren't videoed for everybody out there to watch. (Losing control of ourselves while sharing gas coming out of JB, and the two of us rolling over and over as the flow blew us upslope, was one of those times.) Anybody who would have seen that incident would have concluded that none of the three of us had any business in a cave at all -- and maybe they would have been right. But I can guarantee you that things like that don't happen in Mexico! And we DID get better as we went on; learning to think about what the flow is going to do with you when your body gets in certain positions just requires a bit of sometimes uncomfortable experience.

When you realize that almost no beginning cave diving classes outside of GUE and UTD have any prerequisites beyond standard recreational dive training, you also have to acknowledge that the beginning skills of a lot of cavern/intro students are not going to be "cave standard". I don't know what the answer to that is. I like the way GUE requires that you reach a certain standard of buoyancy, propulsion and awareness before you ever present for cave training, but the other agencies don't do that, and I don't think they are likely to.

 

[ucfdiver]

Okay . . . it sounds like he's hammering the class.

I'm a bit surprised that cave instructors allow single tanks, but it's within the standards. The real issue here is that an agency allows it.

I think the combination of what's seen here can be explained by

• Not having gear configuration standardized-- no one can demonstrate how to do something when they're not wearing the same kit.
• Not having a intro to tech course to gain fundamental skills before the stress of a cave environment
• Having video lights to add task loading to a dive that's already very stressful

I don't agree with everything in the video, but I think the areas most of us scratch our heads over are easily explainable.

I *do* find it interesting that some on here say you have to touch Ginnie, when a video has been posted where we went 2400ft back and didn't touch anything but the lips.

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, I'm an experienced instructor with over 250 cave dives. And, I see so much going on in that video that can't be excused.

Carry on with the drivel...

Well, since you have the courage to call out a well known instructor whose name is plastered on the top of the thread, then I think you should have the courage to go beyond a hit and run like this.

1. State your name as clearly as Jill's is stated.

2. If you "see so much going on in that video that can't be excused," then list it all. If it can't be excused, then Jill should be held accountable for it. Since you are publicly accusing her of inexcusable behavior, then you should be specific in your accusations.

 

[57Writer]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should reveal that I am "very close" to Jill Heinerth. Be assured, Jill takes none of this personally. If the OP is ever in Florida cave country, Jill would be happy to have him come by for coffee, and conversation.

 

[shagyluke]

Okay so I told Jill that this thread didnt reserve a reply from her and I would let it go but I cant... This is what Jill's reply is:


Hi Aaron,
Thanks for your note... its nice to hear from you. Of course I remember you and your wife! I remember you being pretty excited about the new experiences with Richard.... he is a great instructor.
My husband mentioned the thread and I just stay away from all the pointless stuff on the forums. Its too stressful to read and worry about. I didn't read the thread myself, but from what I understand, someone was poking at a new cavern student I was working with. Its such a shame that folks forget what it is like to be a "newbie." I have a really strong belief in "discovery learning" which allows a student to make choices and mistakes and learn from those experiences in the water rather than preventing all the learning opportunities in the first place. It means that some people have a rough time and don't get too far in class. There are a lot of people that I don't certify, but rather than cutting them off at the knees, I help them to make the decision with me. It is far better when they realize they are not ready to move forward and that they need more work before moving ahead in their training.
Anyway, I'm happy to chat with folks one to one about any questions they have about my training. I'm happy to chat with the fellow who started the post if he'll kindly contact me as you did. I believe in transparency and I believe in excellence in diving skills. I also believe its important for people to reach out and engage in meaningful dialogues, but couldn't care less about gossip.
Thanks for bring this to my attention. I know it was heartfelt!
I hope you and your wife are getting in some great cave dives this summer.
All the best,
Jill
PS - feel free to share this if you wish... feel free to repost too....

 

[divermike1011]

This confirms my opinion that Jill is one on the ball lady.

Michael

 

[shoredivr]

It's unfortunate, Moonglow, maybe your posts were intended as a satirical blast from the past, but they're kinda disinclining me to take a class from you.

IJS

 

[Rick Murchison]

H-valves... either valve can be shut down; either valve can deliver all the gas in the tank. That's the same as doubles of any configuration. On the downside, in addition to the valves themselves, there are two possible failure points - the tank o-ring and a physical blockage of the delivery tube - that could cause a total gas failure. With manifolded doubles you have the same valves, but four (vice one) o-ring connections (two tank and either end of the manifold) that can give a total gas failure, and while a clogged tube will only cost half your gas, you have double the chance of having a failure there as you have two of 'em. Adding an isolator can protect half your gas if you have a failure in one of the other connections, but you've also added two more o-ring connections and another valve that can fail... So which configuration provides more reliable redundancy? When I toss all that up in the air to see where it falls, an H-valved 130 is just as redundant as double 65's. And that's why H-valves are acceptable in overhead environments.
--
As for handling big flow in a cave, I'd like to see *anyone* exit JB on a high flow day for the first time and maintain 30fpm with elegance!

Rick