Deep Diving on Air

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What is defined as an "experienced diver" is subjective and may be compounded by depth and conditions. I know many "experienced" divers who have no experience at a PO2 of 1.6 ATM. Are these divers "experienced" enough to dive the Doria on air? I don't think so. However, I've known several commercial divers who in my mind are not very experienced (with just 2 or 3,000 hours), that I'd dive the Doria with on air without hesitation. I suppose the point I'm trying to make, is that diving ability and experience are complex issues. I sincerely believe that it's up to the individual to make an evaluation of their capabilities and assess the level of risk they're comfortable with. It depends on the time, the conditions and the person. One day I may bow-out, the next I'm good to go. There are no hard and fast absolutes. Every experienced diver should know when to say no to a dive.

I am always reminded of the story of Rob Palmer, one of the early founders of TDI and by all accounts a superb technical diver. However, those who knew him (I didn't) always said that Rob had very little tolerance for narcosis. As good a diver as he was, he wasn't a man who went deep on air.
 
With respect to Bret Gilliam and Mitch Skaggs the originators of TDI, this organization is a relative newcomer to the scene (1994) and one that was created in an environment that allowed access to Helium. This was not always the case, nor is Helium available to many diving locations worldwide. Regardless, there are dives that can be done on Helium that are beyond the ability of divers certified to use it.

It is not the gas that concerns me, but any dive that's beyond the experience envelope of the person making the dive. This applies to cold-water, current, depth or overhead.
 
It is not the gas that concerns me, but any dive that's beyond the experience envelope of the person making the dive.

Thank you ... that point needs to be emphasized. What truly bothers me about this and the many other deep air threads isn't the breathing gas ... it's that they end up promoting the notion that this type of diving is somehow a "shortcut" to proper training and experience.

Jarrod Jabolinski recently made the following statement in an article on recreational rebreathers ... but I think it applies to deep air diving as well ... or to be more accurate, to how deep air diving (bounce diving in particular) get promoted on ScubaBoard ...

I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
... It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

You make a good point Bob, but diving in overhead environments is also promoted on SB. What needs to be pointed out is that each diving environment possesses its own unique hazards and before venturing into the unknown, the diver requires appropriate training. As I've already mentioned, even after a person undertakes formal training, natural and man-made complications occur. These are often compounded resulting in the margin for safety being reduced...

If someone desires to pursue deep-air, get proper training and go slowly! In the past, my deep air classes have involved a number of chamber dives before openwater training. After a ride or two, some decide that they want no part of it. Dives should be progressive not only with depth, but duration and physical stress as well. The diver should have an increased level of fitness over the leisure vacation diver. Every diver needs to learn their limitations, so they can dive within them. I think one of the problems is that many divers have no idea of their safety envelope. It takes time to define their personal capabilities and what they want out of the underwater world. Often people throw stones at what they don't understand.
 
No. The point is that over the past decades, people have learned how to do dives safely, whether in caves or in open water. We are still learning, but we have learned a lot. We have established certain norms for doing such dives. Violating those norms reduces the safety margin and increases the risk.

True, but at the same time, we've also had a moving target: in addition to training for 'better' ways, we've also had the margins on (real or perceived) limits moved too, which in some cases were much more likely motivated by the perspective of reducing potential liability.

A classic example is in bottom time: good luck in actually finding a publication that quantifies the actual DCS risk (bootleg), and even though the classical Navy Dive Table permitted 25min NDL @ 100fsw, dive computers have had progressively shorter times. For example, the Dacor Omni from 1993 permitted a 20 minute NDL on a 100fsw profile. Compare that to today's computers...they all have shorter maximum permissible times...some are now as little as 12 minutes IIRC. While it is certainly not a bad thing to be conservative to bolster safety margins, the problem is that lacking any published quantification of a profile's estimated DCS risk profiles, the numbers don't have any providence: it is inevitable that the numbers used have a strong dose of lawyer-based liability insulation built in.


Diving beyond your training means that you do not fully understand the risks you are taking, you do not know the safety measures you are missing, and you do not have the training it takes to deal with emergencies that should be anticipated.

Deliberately ignoring your training means that you understand the risks you are taking, you make a conscious decision to miss one or more safety measures, and you hope your training will enable you to deal with an emergency that you anticipate could happen because of that decision.

It looks like a pretty big difference to me. Of course, people who have not been trained for this sort of thing don't realize how much there is to it, so they have trouble seeing the difference.

I agree with where you're going, but I think that the condemnation of the second possibility is a bit simplistic. The problem starts with how formal training has been whitewashed into "Do this, don't do that" without the underlying depth of science, which means that the formal training has limited itself in its applicability. Once again, we can see where such an approach can strategically limit the potential liability exposure of the trainer. But by this choice to avoid frank & quantified discussions on risk, the community hasn't been equipped with the knowledge or the tools to know how to assess risks, particularly which risks are worse than others. When the inevitable incident happens, the diver is left in the lurch of not clearly knowing which choice is the 'Lesser of Two Evils'.

Please note that this isn't to say that the diver will always make the right choice, or that that taking the risk-taking will always pan out favorably: they won't. However, the facts remain that divers still die even when they're faithfully following all the formal rules, too.

So what I see as missing is a third option of basically one of "Informed Consent" in modifying (not necesssarily "missing" a safety measure) a standard dive practice. While the assumption is that safety margins will always be narrowed, it isn't necessarily so: any of us who have done a 7 minute safety stop when the SOP calls for 3-5 minutes is thus "Guilty" of modifying standard practices. What can ... and does ... occur over time is that the knowledgable diver will learn on his own where the defacto safety margins are irrationally "fat" in comparison to other objective risks, to which they may choose to act accordingly to improve some aspect of the performance of their dive without the risk actually being degraded.


Here's the difference.

In the worst case scenario, a diver at 60 feet with no overhead environment diving within NDLs can go straight to the surface with no serious threat of a problem.

A diver who has gone deep enough and/or long enough to incur a deco obligation is at increasing risk of DCS or drowning in the same situation should he or she exercise that option. If Opal and Gabbi had run out of gas at 60 feet, we wouldn't even know it happened. They would be happily diving today. Instead, they ran out at 200 feet, and we have a tragedy.

All you're really doing is illustrating that mistakes are a bad thing and some mistakes are harder to recover from than others. Had the proverbial diver ventured inside an overhead at 60fsw, become lost and gone OOA, they would be just as dead, without the 'Depth Bogeyman' baggage.

Yes, there is a 'Slippery Slope' when it comes to correlating pure depth to risk, except that an extra foot at any depth isn't by itself be a killer. If it were, then OW divers would instantly die as soon as they go to 61fsw, with AOW divers spontaneously combusting at 131fsw. The real problem with the whole 'Deep Air' bit is that the risks are both continuous as well as functionally "discontinuous" because of other variable susceptibility factors...and that variability is really where the risk concern resides.

On the one hand, I philisophically don't have too much of a problem in accepting a diver ... who has sufficient knowledge/background so as to be in a position of "Informed Consent" ... to operate at a different (eg, lower) safety margin than standard recreational-centric practices. It doesn't matter if we're talking about solo diving, dead boat diving, deep air diving, or cageless shark diving: in a manner of speaking, "risk is risk".

On Narcosis risk specifically, my biggest concern is how does one really figure out what represents adequate applied knowledge so as to make for an honest "Informed Consent" risk assessment? For example, we can talk about there seemingly being some evidence of diver acclimation to Narcosis impairment, but to this very day, the absolute worst Narc I've ever had hit me at an "incredibly shallow" 60fsw...and that was on my last day of two weeks of continous diving to depths averaging 1.5x deeper and which were occasionally 2x as deep. This experience also taught me something quite cynical about those arguments of 'Acclimation'...there's always more variables than the benign use case.

Finally, what I've been concerned about for several years now is the advent of Mix and Tek training resulting in an environment which functionally encourages divers: they become more prone to engage in deeper, higher risk profiles before they've gotten 500 dives under his belt. Heck, there's probably some certified cave divers who don't even have 100 dives yet.

Frankly, what I have my reservations on is the suitability for anyone to "Fast Track" into the more difficult disciplines even with the gear, mixes and training ... there's a lot to be said about just racking up "Seat Time" before moving up into a more challenging (ie, contextual risk management) situation, which sometimes is reflected in "Min # Dives" entry requirements for some levels of training. The devil is in the detail for how this could (including should) be applied to the paradigm of the 'Vacation' Rec diver who's looking at a warmwater depth excursion. Sometimes, it is merely just for the purpose of having a macho response to the "You're a diver? How deep have you been?" question.


-hh
 
While it is certainly not a bad thing to be conservative to bolster safety margins, the problem is that lacking any published quantification of a profile's estimated DCS risk profiles, the numbers don't have any providence: it is inevitable that the numbers used have a strong dose of lawyer-based liability insulation built in.

The numbers may not have any provenance, but they sure have Providence!

You seem very confident that the numbers are "padded" to appease the lawyers. Given that I know a few people who have been bent, many of them while well inside what the tables say is ok, I'm going to call bull. The tables got more conservative because people realized that the fit 18-year-olds who populate the Navy dataset are not a particularly good basis for devising a recreational table. Nor is the risk tolerance of the Navy for bending one of its enlisted servicepersons (potentially in wartime) the same as mine on a recreational dive.

That said, it'd be good to see the risk models. An article in Alert Diver from last year argued based on the risk models, so they clearly exist, even if they're not public.
 
Often people throw stones at what they don't understand.

A deep air guy got narc'd (who was a proponent of the narcosis toleration excuse) at 180 up here and sucked his gas down, nearly died on the ascent and wound up bent pretty badly. I did basically the same dive on mix and a scooter (and with a buddy). You are right that I don't understand what the point of that accident was at all.
 
Jarrod Jabolinski recently made the following statement in an article on recreational rebreathers ... but I think it applies to deep air diving as well ... or to be more accurate, to how deep air diving (bounce diving in particular) get promoted on ScubaBoard ...

I have always been a champion of people’s individual rights, even when I think what they are doing is damn fool stupid. But, I strongly believe you have a responsibility to limit the exposure of people who don’t know better. And that applies to organizations as well as individuals. It’s one thing to do something yourself, but it’s another to promote it, because now you’ve taken on a different mantle of responsibility and I take that as a much stronger responsibility.

I have never met JJ but I hope one day I have the pleasure. I swapped a few e-mails with him a year or so ago and he struck me as a really top drawer guy.
 
The numbers may not have any provenance, but they sure have Providence!

You seem very confident that the numbers are "padded" to appease the lawyers.

Yes, pretty much, although I'd not say that it is only due to lawyers of companies. The basic problem is that no model is going to be risk free, and without an objectively clear industry risk standard, the 'safe' business strategy is to be "better" than the industry average, which as products cycle through invariably creates a spiral (think: Positive Feedback Loop): when everyone is above average, the average will move...and that's what has been happening: when I first started to dive, the Table profiles permitted 60 for 60 with a 60ft/min ascent and zero safety stop.

Given that I know a few people who have been bent, many of them while well inside what the tables say is ok, I'm going to call bull.

Bent on just which tables? Or a better question would be - which set of tables hasn't ever had anyone get bent on it? Yes, there are so-called 'undeserved hits'...it is the nature of statistics no matter how conservative one tries to set the bar.


The tables got more conservative because people realized that the fit 18-year-olds who populate the Navy dataset are not a particularly good basis for devising a recreational table. Nor is the risk tolerance of the Navy for bending one of its enlisted servicepersons (potentially in wartime) the same as mine on a recreational dive.

Historically, the military's rank structure meant that the young kids weren't the divers - - they were the topside help. Those with the seniority weren't 18 anymore: they were older and were often smokers/drinkers/etc...not our stereotype of 'NAVY SEAL'.

Plus, if you're going to reach that far back historically, don't forget that those early dives' ascent rates were in the neighborhood of 90-120ft/min. The Navy did later compromise at a 60ft/min ascent rate (to try to use the same set of tables for hardhat divers whose platforms couldn't be raised all that fast). Similarly, minor DCS symptoms were often ignored (if even recognized), plus medical science didn't know about the connection of DCS to PFOs, and so on: personally, I had the pleasure ~2 years ago of meeting one of the Swiss military divers whose DCS hit was what lead to the realization of 'Altitude'.

That said, it'd be good to see the risk models. An article in Alert Diver from last year argued based on the risk models, so they clearly exist, even if they're not public.

Agreed. There's arguments pro & con, such as that publishing the numbers would lead to abuses. I've seen some parts that have leaked out to the public....how does "50 minutes at 100fsw" sound as a no-stop profile? Obscurity of algorithms does tend to shield liability for manufacturers, although the really bad stuff can still trickle out in lawsuits (eg, some of Uwatec's pre-1996 Aladin Air-X Nitrox dive computers which had a bug that IIRC kept the diver breathing Nitrox even during his surface interval).

The bottom line is that it all still boils down to risk, which requires information in order to make good, informed decisions.

And speaking of which, don't believe that nonsense that 130fsw is because it works out to a PPO2 of 1.0 ATM ... the historical reality is that the USN divers started with Steel 68's and the bottom time at 130fw simply wasn't sufficient to get any useful work done...as such, it was mission-pragmatic, not physiologically based as we've all been lead to believe.


-hh
 
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hh I dive the navy tables and add my own safety zone all my life, thanks for putting it in to words, also commercial divers are older, from all that I ran into and dove with they are different on scuba.

I even add safety time when diving a computer.
 
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