Individual Rights, and other Myths

[Mossman]

As California seems to be the bright and shining example of dumb, ignorant and stupid stuff this post didn't surprise me at all. Must be something in the water out there.

Yup, California is the birthplace of dumb, ignorant and stupid stuff like recreational scuba diving. Unlike Florida and Hawaii, we're not forced to tow a stupid flag when we dive because we don't live in a nanny state. And we also don't live in an ex-bayou "protected" by levees sure to fail in the big storm.

Just sayin'.

 

[Lobzilla]

The problems in today's America is that while individuals like to have all the choices, they or their families sue the "deepest pocket" if something goes wrong.

If we want true authority, we (and our families) must accept the responsibility that comes with it.

(Note: it is interesting that even regulated industries uphold the connection of authority and responsibility. Example: Federal Aviation Regulations (my emphasis added).
§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.)

 

[NAM001]

I am missing the connection. How does piloting an airship that can colilde with another or crash and do physical harm relate to diving? I could see it if a diver headbutted a small craft and said action caused the vessel to assume a submerged posture. But really ... what can a diver do damage wize that can compare with the potential damage from missoperating a plane/ weapon in flight? It was not divers that took down the twin towers.

The problems in today's America is that while individuals like to have all the choices, they or their families sue the "deepest pocket" if something goes wrong.

If we want true authority, we (and our families) must accept the responsibility that comes with it.

(Note: it is interesting that even regulated industries uphold the connection of authority and responsibility. Example: Federal Aviation Regulations (my emphasis added).
§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.)

 

[MarineResearch]

The revenue stream associated with a heavily regulated SCUBA industry could be quite large. We could have SCUBA police giving tickets for minor infractions, like an incomplete buddy check. Miss any portion or BWRAF, or do it incorrectly, and it's an automatic $100 fine (about $250 after fees are added in California). Surface with less than 500 psi? A dollar per pound fine. After being required to submit your computer logs to the SCUBA police, there could be a fine for each instance where you exceeded an ascent rate of 30 feet per minute, although the state might want to lower that to a much "safer" 10 feet per minute. Think of the endless possibilities to [-]raise revenue [/-]save lives.

 

[DennisS]

Some pretty savvy people here on SB have recently defended the principle of "Individual Rights", making the point that divers have the right to dive any way they like, as long as they don't harm others.

This is a version of the good old American ideal of the rugged individualist exercising his individual liberty, and has strong emotional appeal because it's linked to the successes of American icons like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and Steve Jobs.

But does it really apply to scuba divers? Do we have the "individual right" to dive in a reckless manner because it's nobody else's business? If there is an accident or fatality, is it true that it doesn't harm others?

Frankly, I find this argument to be childish, arrogant, and wrong. Childish because it fails to recognize the inevitable consequences of an accident on other people. Arrogant because the average scuba diver is no Thomas Edison. Wrong because the implicit assumption - of "no harm to others" - is virtually impossible.

So let's get real here: If a scuba diver is hurt doing something reckless or stupid, it affects their friends, families, fellow divers, rescue folks, medical folks, insurance folks, dive businesses, and the reputation of the dive community. Do we have the "right" to do that?

I don't care about the insurance company, dive businesses or the reputation of the dive community. I put on my gear and go diving. It's no different than people who go rock climbing or go backpacking for a week by themselves. They are not interested in the reputation of the outdoor industry or back packing community. People take sail boats and go around the world by themselves, do you think they worry about the impact it will have on the boating industry or insurance industry. There are extremists in every sport, what you are calling childish is adventure calling.

We currently have the right to do that. Enjoy it before some bureaucrat/politician takes it away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6KmxvEnkuU

You can do anything you want with your life, but there are consequences.

 

[Lobzilla]

I am missing the connection. How does piloting an airship that can colilde with another or crash and do physical harm relate to diving? I could see it if a diver headbutted a small craft and said action caused the vessel to assume a submerged posture. But really ... what can a diver do damage wize that can compare with the potential damage from missoperating a plane/ weapon in flight? It was not divers that took down the twin towers.

The point was that with authority comes responsibility, even where we have and should have federal regulations. In the absence of federal regulation we need more self-governed responsibility. The alternative to bureaucrats running our lives is not the anarchy of irresponsibility.

 

[Mike Boswell]

[Quote Spd135 As California seems to be the bright and shining example of dumb, ignorant and stupid stuff this post didn't surprise me at all. Must be something in the water out there. More "nanny stateism" Individual rights means "you need to mind your own damn business about how I dive unless it personally places you where you don't want to be" Then, you use your personal responsibility and get out of that situation.]

Yup, California is the birthplace of dumb, ignorant and stupid stuff like recreational scuba diving. Unlike Florida and Hawaii, we're not forced to tow a stupid flag when we dive because we don't live in a nanny state. And we also don't live in an ex-bayou "protected" by levees sure to fail in the big storm.

Just sayin'.

He's got a point - It might be something in the water. Such as, a lack of crude oil. Any ideas about how much Katrina and Deepwater Horizon cost the rest of us nanny-staters?

 

[Mike Boswell]

"fellow divers, rescue folks, medical folks, insurance folks, dive businesses, and the reputation of the dive community".... Hmmm did the person exercising their rights create any of that? Does he/she have a obligation to any of that?

Freedom includes the word free.

So you feel that you are free to cost me money, but I'm NOT free to not pay it?

 

[Mike Boswell]

Face it, basically there is little more than good sense and a desire to live restricting the rights of any diver to do as he pleases when it come to planning and executing his dives. The only exceptions I see is dive operators' rules which a dive usually has to agree to (contract) to dive with an operator. Plus there are a few local government bodies which also set rules that limit the divers rights.

Are you suggesting that operators and/or government bodies need to make more rules (laws)?[/QUOTE]

Just the opposite. I'm suggesting that the way to avoid new rules is to behave like adults. Instead of ranting about our "individual rights" like a two-year-old in a grocery store, we should be discussing our responsibilities to each other and to our sport.

 

[redacted]

Are you suggesting that operators and/or government bodies need to make more rules (laws)?[/QUOTE]

Just the opposite. I'm suggesting that the way to avoid new rules is to behave like adults. Instead of ranting about our "individual rights" like a two-year-old in a grocery store, we should be discussing our responsibilities to each other and to our sport.

Your message would have been better communicated if your post focused on accepting responsibilities rather than denying rights