Individual Rights, and other Myths

[cerich]

So you feel that you are free to cost me money, but I'm NOT free to not pay it?

you are free not to pay, just live with the consequences of those actions....

it's a silly argument in my view, either we allow people the freedom to engage in risky behavior like driving a car, scuba, skydiving etc. and respect that people should be free to pursue their passions or not. If not then pass endless regulations to keep us all safe. I'll vote on that with my feet on that when possible and if not with my life. I believe in freedom and liberty as a essential right, not one granted to me by anybody or any government. There was a time when western governments were willing to fight for our freedoms.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There was a time when western governments were willing to fight for our freedoms.

... that was back when we had freedoms, Chris ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cerich]

speaking of freedom to dive make sure this time to schedule some time for us to go diving when I'm up there for the show.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Your message would have been better communicated if your post focused on accepting responsibilities rather than denying rights

Ah, but I AM "denying rights". I deny that you have the "right" to my money.

Somebody does a reckless dive and winds up a quadriplegic with round-the-clock care for the next 40 years, paid for by your and my taxes. I don't have the "right" to not pay it. So, as far as I'm concerned, he did not have the "right" to do it.

 

[knowone]

As it is the right when backed into a cave by words, during human interaction
to rush right out, spear in hand quoting GW with a list of rights pinned to the
tip

It is neither moral nor is it acceptable as a member of team human race
for the individual to selfishly place itself ahead of, or to the detriment of
other members

The fantasy of of an indiviuals rights soon hits a wall when that other
more complex bill, the law, is brought to bear, where quite quickly the
invalidity and futility of moving a society forward, whilst maintaining a
culture that is inherently reliant on a document that was only valid for
the time it was written, would suggest forwards is going backwards or
at standstill.

 

[captain]

You all take this diving accidents thing way to seriously, in the grand scheme it's a grain of sand on the beach.

 

[cerich]

hmmm...i dont "want" people to do stupid dives with my gear, they may get hurt/killed and I end up getting sued. I would however fight strongly for the rights of those that want to.

Plus if you want to pass some laws that prevent what you don't like, I assume you want a mechanism to enforce your new laws, that would take money and you would steal thru tax or fees that in addition to stealing their freedom. Yet when you feel it is your money being taken you have a problem. Inetersting....

Ah, but I AM "denying rights". I deny that you have the "right" to my money.

Somebody does a reckless dive and winds up a quadriplegic with round-the-clock care for the next 40 years, paid for by your and my taxes. I don't have the "right" to not pay it. So, as far as I'm concerned, he did not have the "right" to do it.

 

[petrieps]

Ah, but I AM "denying rights". I deny that you have the "right" to my money.

Somebody does a reckless dive and winds up a quadriplegic with round-the-clock care for the next 40 years, paid for by your and my taxes. I don't have the "right" to not pay it. So, as far as I'm concerned, he did not have the "right" to do it.

That is the lamest thing i've read so far. Geesh, are you kidding. More people are hurt from falling coconuts than diving!

 

[cerich]

Oh, that is silly. In some societies women and children are essentially slaves, in those societies it is considered moral to rape your wife and beat her and kill your children if they embarrass you. I certainly hope that people place their individual freedoms above the societal norms there. You show a essential lack of understanding of the true natures of society, humanity and how brief and brutal life is for most of us in the bigger picture and historical context. The document you so easily disregard created something history has never seen and may never see again. A place where the individual had worth, their dreams had the possibility to occur and anything was possible. Under that environment science prospered and women, children and people of color had worth.

You aren't going to get a utopia of everybody living together under what you seem to want, you'll get a brutal society where a VERY small % take everything from the rest.

As it is the right when backed into a cave by words, during human interaction.
to rush right out, spear in hand quoting GW with a list of rights pinned to the
tip

It is neither moral nor is it acceptable as a member of team human race
for the individual to selfishly place itself ahead of, or to the detriment of
other members

The fantasy of of an indiviuals rights soon hits a wall when that other
more complex bill, the law, is brought to bear, where quite quickly the
invalidity and futility of moving a society forward, whilst maintaining a
culture that is inherently reliant on a document that was only valid for
the time it was written, would suggest forwards is going backwards or
at standstill.

 

[TSandM]

This is very much the same argument that went around and around when states began to pass helmet laws for motorcyclists. Do I have the right to risk my own head injury? Do I have the right to ask you to pay for my care, when my head injury renders me dependent? This is a classic "it only affects the user" type of situation; helmet use has nothing to do with responsible riding or driving, but only with the consquences of an accident, and then only to the victim and his family -- and society, when it comes to costs.

It's a very slippery slope to start down. If it's illegal to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, should it be illegal to go mountain-climbing without a guide? Search and rescue operations are costly. Should it be illegal to jump horses? Christopher Reeves is an example of what happens when you do that.

But in each of these cases, there are tons of people involved in the activities who behave responsibly without legislation forcing them to do it. It's the unlucky or irresponsible few that draw the press and the ire of uninvolved people. It is the same way with diving. At the very least, hundreds of thousands of dives are done world-wide every year, with a very low incident or mortality rate. This suggests that the way the activity is being conducted is relatively safe -- whether that means avoidance of incidents, or good incident response systems, is something we just don't and can't know. A few people behave irresponsibly and cause enormous harm to themselves, their families, their friends, and sometimes to the businesses with which they were involved and the agencies who have to afford search and recovery efforts (and the folks who risk themselves doing them, as with the Vortex incident). The problem is that drunk driving shows us that you can't stop truly irresponsible behavior with rules. The people who grossly ignore common sense and normal procedure will ignore rules, too.

I would like everyone, of every age and involved in every activity, to take a sober and thoughtful look at how they do what they do, and whether they are utilizing best practices, and reasonable precautions for safety. But human beings being what they are, you will never see that. Too often, regulations cause inconvenience or expense to people who are already behaving well, and do nothing to change the behavior of people who are willfully foolish.