Tina Watson Death - The Full Story

[Mark Derail]

Questions :

Michael, was the Instructor that certified TINA, brought into question?
( My PADI-OW training was intensive, by-the-book, having done ALL the skills at 40+ feet in the ocean before being certified. Stuff like mask removal & buddy breathing, etc. )
( Perhaps the Instructor was lax with Tina since Gabe was rescue-level? )

Why do you think Tina dropped like that? How much weight was she wearing?
Edit (found the info) : She was wearing 20 lbs - that's huge IMO - downright scary. No sane boat op should let a diver into the ocean with that much !!!
( Sylvie and I follow the PADI recommandations, and at the begging of a dive we float slowly down with no air in our BC's. Not at all like a stone, which is what it seems Tina was doing. )

Thus - her BCD make & model - was 20 lbs beyond it's lift capacity?
(I assume not, it just would take a huge amount of air)


Do you think the guide/DM on that dive did a good job?
( I loathe to think what that person went through, losing a diver on his shift)

Could alcohol, in larger-than-normal quantities taken the night before, affected Tina?
We now know that thicker blood, due to lack of hydration, causes the bends more easily, and perhaps she got dizzy & confused at 10M what other divers might experience in the 30M-40M range.

In your opinion, Michael, if a diver falls to 30M and is dizzy / confused - and blacks out - will the human body continue to breathe through the regulator?
Her mask being on, water would not enter through her nose.
You state on the web page that the mouth did not close properly around the reg after passing out.
Her panick and the pressure of 30M prevented sufficient air to her lungs.

Based on this last question - even if Gabe had gone down to her or with her, the fact that she had blacked out and was letting water in, it was already too late.
Do you agree?


.

Our dives in Grand Cayman (just last week), as certified OW, it was up to us to follow, or not, the guide/DM. We could do our own thing, which we did. However, we both knew we are still "beginners" despite that we both have over 40 dives, and stayed close to the buoy line when we were "alone" together.
There was current, and plenty to see within sight of the boat.

In a similar situation - where Sylvie would have dropped right to the bottom - I would have calmly descended to her - 30M bottom is not that deep. Not like a "bounce dive" scenario where the bottom is well past the danger zone of 50M+.

To me it seems like Tina didn't expect to drop down so fast and panicked. Punching her husband most likely was due to this panic.
The best her husband could do - trained rescue !?! wth? - with plenty of air, is descend to her and make eye contact. He was using his spare reg, and had cleared his mask, and had plenty of air. No reason for him to panick, from my point of view.
​

Thanks Michael.

 

[Mark Derail]

Woh, mighty words! You're saying that the facts stated by Michael are not all, or inaccurate.
Then, you say that Michael had a monetary impulse to make sure Gabe is acquitted.

Do you, KREED (with only 1 post !!!), have facts to your statements??? Or you're someone that is just trolling ScubaBoard.com against Michael?

Obviously you are not a diver. I'm a big guy, 200 lbs, with a high BMI (I'm overweight) - meaning I require A LOT OF WEIGHT to get down in salt water. I even wear a full 3MM wet suit.
Guess how much weight I use, with the same tanks that Tina was using?

12 lbs ! That's up from my usual 10 lbs, because my UW camera with two strobes (they are electronic flashes) were positive buoyant and I had to compensate.

My girlfriend Sylvie only requires 8 lbs and descends like a charm. She can go down with 6 lbs, but at the end of the dive, has trouble staying in the safety stop zone.

IOW, I hate to say it, but Tina was grossly over weighted, and that was HER RESPONSIBILITY, not anyone else. Safety always starts with yourself first.
To become certified - she had to do FOUR open water dives in water deeper than 8M or 25 feet.
Those are the dives you do overweighted slightly, until you "get the hang of it".
I remember using 16 lbs the first time, then 12, then 10 or 11.

Had she taken proper care during her training, she NEVER would have used that much. It's a tragedy, not a murder.

If Tina was truly clueless as to how much weight she should have on, then her instructor - not GABE - is at fault.
Also, the boat op should not have let her in the water with 20 lbs, not even Gabe.
However, did they know?

Michael McFayden needs to actually get his information from public records versus media sources. I you had indeed read the transcript from the police interview in Australia you would know that there were 16 different discrepancies in Gabe's statement. And even now Gabe is telling a different version of what happened. There were dive experts at trial that testified to what happened. Dr. Edmonds who did come to court was not there at that time, so I am assuming that the information he gave was from media sources. Media does not always report accurately, as I would hope that you knew. The claims that he was found not guilty in 2 places is false. Australia made a plea agreement with Gabe while he was in the US. The plea deal did not say he was not guilty, it was ruled manslaughter and I think the definition of manslaughter is to cause someone's death. A grand jury in the US found him guilty of 2 counts of Capital Murder. If you were in court the entire time, you would also know that the judge would not let the prosecution present its entire case. Also, you (Michael McFayden) and Carl Edmons were both paid witnesses for the defense. Also, before the trial even started, there was a book deal which would make money for both of them if Gabe was acquitted. If you are going to state information as facts, it would be wise to actually use court transcripts, public records etc., to get information correct. I really could go on and on with facts, but there are so many that have not been spoken of in this forum.

 

[Kreed]

Yes, Mark Derail, I do have facts. Have you read any of the transcripts, witness affidavits, police reports? I have. Also, 4 expert divers with much more diving experience obviously as me testified to the fact that as a new diver, on a drift dive, in salt water would have trouble with their buoyancy and therefore the 20 lbs was not overweighted. One of those experts that tesified in court had over 10,000 dives (he was a dive master that led groups twice a day at least, every day. There is also written documentation between both Mike Ball and Gabe that show Gabe knew exactly what that dive might be like. His own dive instructor testified that Gabe knew what to do in a panic situation and had even used that rescue training on another dive to save his dive buddy. Apparently, you were not in court every day, but I was. I also have read everything from autopsy reports to witness statements and police interviews. In regards to the book deal, ask Michael, or you can just wait and watch the book be done. I do not personally know Michael McFayden or Carl Edmons, but became quite interested in them when I found out they were writing a book and were paid witnesses, that appeared out of nowhere many years after Tina's death. I would be curious to know how many dives each of them have? How many dives do you have? In regards to the question about alcohol in her system, the toxicology reported no alcohol and the only thing found was a decongestant. Why is it that Tina did not start to sink until after Gabe had his arms around her? In his interview, Gabe said that when Tina was sinking she was between 5-10 feet below him, this, according to witnesses would have taken between 1 and 3 fin kicks to get to her. Isn't the rule, "you never leave your dive buddy" part of the training? You don't really want to question me about facts, I have been involved in this case for the past 8 1/2 years and have read every statement that has been made. Why would Gabe give 16 different versions of what happened and then on 20/20 last week give a completely new version, that has not been mentioned before? If it were your wife, would you not even attempt to save her? The eye witness said Gabe never even made a motion of going to get her, but that he watched her sink?

 

[Doubler]

Kreed a Grand Jury can't find you guilty of anything. A Grand Jury can grant an indictment which states there is enough evidence to go to trail. A Grand Jury is also a prosecutorial tool meaning a prosecutor asks all the questions and could get your Grandmother up on the same charges. You are soooooo correct about the media.

 

[Lookmanohands]

"Isn't the rule, "you never leave your dive buddy" part of the training? You don't really want to question me about facts,"

Kreed, you might need to rethink yourself on "facts". Cause isn't it a fact that Gabe's dive instructor testified at the trial that he instructed his students to leave their dive buddy after 1 minute to get help if they felt they could not help any longer?

Isn't it a fact that Gabe's dive instructor also testified that his wife used the same make/model BC that Tina used and said he did not like it because he felt it did not have enough lift capability?

Isn't it a fact that Tina's BC had a lift capacity of 19 lbs and she was wearing 20 lbs?

Isn't it a fact that the facts hurt your feelings because it proves you were wrong for 8 1/2 years?

Here is my favorite one: Isn't it a fact that you are Tina's cousin who was on the news the day after the case was dismissed still claiming the "bear hug" as a fact after Dr. Stutz said he never said that about Gabe and Tina?

Have a nice day Kerri

 

[ScubaSteve]

Interesting possible turn of events there....

 

[ACES50]

Kreed, I think McFadyen has a couple dozen dives under his belt and Edmonds is fairly new to the diving scene. It's hard to imagine either of them have very much diving experience. It's probably all about the book.

 

[Divedoggie]

Kreed,
You are obviously emotionally involved. I'm very sorry for your loss. It is so very difficult for a non diver to understand many of the concepts and to apply the diving terminology to real situations. When this all became clear to me, I became interested in posting in hopes of adding clarity from a scuba perspective.

Perhaps current dive students and newer divers can increase their training and experience and avoid accidents like this in the future. Perhaps those emotionally invested in the incident can better understand how things work underwater, without hearing it from the prosecution's side or from the defense's side. Maybe just from an experienced observer's side.

To address some of your misunderstandings:

20 lbs is grossly overweighted and Tina's BCD wouldn't float that much weight. Yes, divers need to add some weight when they go from diving in fresh water to diving in salt water, if they are wearing the same wetsuit. There is no precedent for adding weight for diving in a current. My wife uses 6 lbs when diving salt water with the same thickness wetsuit that Tina was wearing.

If a BCD has air in it a depth and the diver goes a few feet up toward the surface, the air in the BCD will expand and cause the diver to float upward. Kicking downward against this buoyant force is impossible. The diver must first let air out of the BCD in order to kick downward successfully. A stressed and panicky diver may forget to let air out and unsuccessfully try to swim down.

Part of Rescue training is to never make 2 victims by attempting a rescue that is beyond your ability. To go get help. It had been 4 years since Gabe took his course. Remembering parts of training and executing that training in real life circumstances are two very different things when out of practice. When he helped his buddy in Cozumel, his buddy was not panicking and was capable of working together with Gabe to retrieve his weight pouch. They had recently taken the Rescue class together and were comfortable diving with each other.

I can address each aspect of what happened with a real life example of what I have seen students and inexperienced divers do. I'm really sorry if you don't like that there are answers besides murder. I'm really not trying to stick up for Gabe, but it is obvious that he has been the scapegoat.
The Incident never should have happened.
It was completely preventable and because it was preventable and so sad, it is frustrating.
Who was at fault?
IMO, it was the following:

Gabe Watson. He pressured Tina into getting certified and assured her and everyone else that he could/would take care of her.

Tina Watson. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions.

Her Instructor. If she was as weak a student and as prone to panic as observed, he never should have signed off on her forms.

The Dive Op. Red Flag dive. No checkout dive. No dive Pro escorting them. Both Watsons were grossly overweighted, etc.

Agency Standards. If the standards required more of the students and more time training, it would take the pressure off of Instructors who refuse sign certification paperwork.

 

[clownfishsydney]

Kreed, you obviously have not read at all anything I have posted or put on my web site. Otherwise you would know the following:

1 I was not paid to be a witness, in fact it cost me $10,000 in lost wages for myself and my wife and airfares for my wife as well as sundry costs for me (my airfare, accommodation and meals were paid for). As far as I am aware, Carl was also not paid
2 All I have written about comes from evidence gathered by the prosecution and given to the defence
3 Virtually none of this is public records as there is almost nothing in the public domain
4 The only bits that come from the media are some statements from witnesses in the first week of evidence in the Alabama trial when I was not there, although I have primarily used a series of notes made by the defence legal team
5 There is no transcript of the Alabama trial available, I have asked
6 There were no dive experts who gave evidence in the first week - if you mean Milsap and Snyder, they are far from experts as many things they said are totally wrong (eg no sensation of weight underwater, Gabe could/should have pushed one button to save Tina - this would have almost certainly killed her)
7 Even I as an Australian know that a Grand Jury cannot find someone guilty of murder
8 The Queensland Court of Appeal found that Gabe did not murder Tina but did fail in his duties, hence manslaughter
9 Finally, as I have pointed out before, I AM NOT WRITING NOR EVER WILL WRITE A BOOK ON THIS MATTER. I cannot make this clearer. And I should point out that neither is Carl.
10 The diver with 10,000 claimed dives was presumably Uzi Barnai? If so, he never stated that 20lbs was not overweighted, in fact he was not asked this at all and I was in court for this evidence
11 Gabe did not give 16 different versions of the story - again I have clearly addressed this false Police claim - the only real different story was the one Tommy and Alanda Thomas said they heard where one bit was never mentioned to anyone else, that he was ripping his gear off as he ascended. All the other stories are consistent, just that not everyone has reported all parts of it.
12 Again, if you had read my web site you would know that as of when I attended the trail I had done 3,250 dives, all real dives, fully documented and everyone of them available on my web site for all the world to see.

Kreed, I have enough guts to put my real identity on this forum. Maybe you should consider doing the same.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Darn.. didn't know this thread was going on.. looks like I have a lot of reading back to do!