NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[Dive-aholic]

it has nothing to do with gue. all of my cave and tech training is through IANTD. same guy that did your trimix class a couple years back i believe.

it's about 'good enough' and 'do it on the cheap' attitudes and her pontificating about cave diving in every cave diving and fatality thread in existence. i've recovered better divers than her and maybe I take it a little more seriously because of that.

Who said anything about GUE?? My statement was about certain people, not an entire organization.

 

[Thalassamania]

I've got nothing else to do tonight except this. Let's play.

Before we go any farther, what words are allowed? If not nickel rocketry, how about cheap? Does that sound better? Instead of cutting corners, what would you like me to say? Please, so we can be sure to use the right terminology.

Thre JB incident is a prime time example of why you need MORE gas on a cave dive. The student's didn't know any better, and the instructor goofed (badly). If they had half the volume (single tank) they probably wouldn't have survived. Cave dives get screwy sometimes. Having more time to solve problems is one of the major benefits of a large reserve.

No one ever said that more air was not better. We were discussing it within the confines of a into class with a competent instructor there for backup, that is all. The whole point of the JB incident was that the instructor in question was not there. Thank goodness they had doubles, but the failure was the instructors and the blame would have been the instructors.

What exactly is the advantage of a single tank? We've long ago listed the numerous shortcomings when compared to a dual-tank system. So if there is no advantage and only disadvantages, whats the deal. They're either too expensive (nickel rocketry...errr... cheapness) or the diver doesn't want to invest time into using them (corner cutting, or your term of choice).

If you look back at my first posts you will note that I said that there was not much savings to be had, especially when you consider the possibility of using independent singles.

Lel to the hardsuit. So we're going to walk on the bottom now? Cute, but telling of what you know about cave diving.

Actually that shows what you know about hard suits. There were a couple of metal swimable hardsuits built, complete with fins, a carbon fiber suit could be built with a cross section that is about the same as a diver with doubles and that is very swimable. I'd suggest that before you just dismiss things you learn a bit about them.

I could buy any regs I want, any suit I want, and tanks I want, etc. I buy the good stuff that's been proven through years of use. Anyone can do that without spending a million dollars. But foregoing critical gear because of stinginess is ill-advised. You've got to pay to play, and if you can't, don't. Just wait a little till you can afford it.

... and I say the same thing to you concerning a custom hard suit, what's the problem? You could have one built for a bout a quarter mil, oh ... you'd rather dive dangerous, eh?

The accidents and incidents in cave diving often show us a lot. A class would fill you in on some of that. But you don't need one, right? Nothing to learn here. There are plenty of divers that are better than me, plenty that are equal, and I'm sure there are a few that are worse. I still respect learning, and a lot of divers who are equal, better, or worse than me respect the same thing and get proper training.

In as much as my years with the National Underwater Accident Data Center gave me the opportunity to closely investigate far more cave (and other) fatalities than most folks I likely already know a bit about it. That was not the question. The challenge, was what has to be learned by an extremely competent diver that could only be passed through a cave diving class? Asked, but still not answered except for the BS answer of "you'd learn to cave dive."

Good thing you aren't interested in cave diving. And for that, we thank you.

Why, it might reduce the length of you intromittent organ? You guys crack me up.

 

[PfcAJ]

Why, it might reduce the length of you intromittent organ?

Classy. Comments like that really show exactly where you stand and the worth of your commentary.

You're a case of the 'expert' that has all the cards, all the answers, and all the experience except having been there and done it yourself. All the guys that HAVE done it (and continue to do it) know better than to listen to your complete nonsense.

Its real easy to cave dive from your keyboard.

 

[Thalassamania]

AJ, if you can make a case, make it.

Otherwise admit that you can't and we'll move on.

The question on the table is simple, but you refuse to address it directly, what, specifically can only be obtained in a cave diving course? That should be an easy question for an expert like you to answer.

 

[CaveMD]

what the hell is a slingshot?

so far cave divers are against single tanks, non cave divers are for it. is that about the score so far?

some of the most outrageous ragged edge exploration was done on a single tank. Talk to Jason Richards, he seems to be a big fan of an AL80 with a slingshot

---------- Post added at 12:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 AM ----------

Erm, sorry, not following ... Is there a picture or something?

Tapatalk by Droid

a picture would be an excellent addition.

 

[PfcAJ]

Nothing. You're right. Cave classes are pointless. Untrained divers dying in caves is a rare event.

How's this: A supervised lost line drill is a tough one to do without a cave. Since I think we all agree that you need a cave cert to cave dive (less you want to become another statistic), and the cave environment is unique and presents conditions that are not found elsewhere, I'd say that qualifies as something that can be only obtained through a cave course.

Does that work? Or does some previous 'experience' count instead?

The best place to learn to cave dive is, well, in a cave with a quality instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's a photo of a Thermo H-valve, same idea:

 

[CaveMD]

Here's a photo of a Thermo H-valve, same idea:
View attachment 119202

Originally Posted by cavemn
Checking out a lady diver's system is a whole different type of diving. In that case I would say a snorkel is sufficient.
Erm, sorry, not following ... Is there a picture or something?

...I think you missed what I was suggesting we get a picture of. Checking out Jax's diving system

 

[Thalassamania]

Nothing. You're right. Cave classes are pointless. Untrained divers dying in caves is a rare event.

How's this: A supervised lost line drill is a tough one to do without a cave. Since I think we all agree that you need a cave cert to cave dive (less you want to become another statistic), and the cave environment is unique and presents conditions that are not found elsewhere, I'd say that qualifies as something that can be only obtained through a cave course.

Does that work? Or does some previous 'experience' count instead?

The best place to learn to cave dive is, well, in a cave with a quality instructor.

Well, here's the lost line drill:

The scenario is something like this: You are swimming down the line in the cave and enjoying the formations of the system. All of a sudden you go to reference the line and you do not see it. You stop and make a mental note of which way you were headed & generally orient yourself as much as you can. The steps are as follows:

· Stop.

· Ask your buddy if s/he sees the line.

· Look around slowly - up, down, left & right. Remember the line could be in a trap so look closely & carefully before the next step.

· Once you realize the line is not within visual contact you will need to deploy your safety reel to search for the line.

· Deploy your safety reel & find a tie off point close by and make a secure tie off . If you cannot find one you can improvise a tie off by sticking a backup light in the bottom. Ensure the light is switched on.

At this point in the drill we are going to also assume zero visibility and/or primary light failure. It is important to note that in the total darkness you will have almost no perception of distance. Divers can alleviate this problem by tying knots in their line every few feet and as you swim down that line you can count the knots and tell how far you have moved.

· Move slowly deploying the line on the reel & counting the knots so as to keep a better reference from your starting point. You will know how big the tunnel you are in is because you saw it before the lights went out.

· Since you cannot see where you are going you will need to keep one hand in front of your head so you will not run into a rock injuring yourself or knocking your mask off.

· This hand should also be "sweeping" up and down in search of the line.
Note: The natural instinct is to sweep right to left rather than up & down. You have a better chance of locating the line sweeping up and down because the line is perpendicular to that plane. Unless of course the line you are looking for is oriented up and down, as we see at Pothole sink and Friedman sink for example.

· Once you locate the line you need to tie your safety reel to that line. Clip the clip back onto your safety line.

· At this point you have to decide which way on the line is the direction to exit. Place a directional marker on the line and swim in the direction you think the exit is. In a system with discernable flow you should be able to reference the way out according to the flow. In low or no flow systems this reference will not be available to you.

Note: If you have been properly referencing the cave system as you were taught you should be able to recognize landmarks that give you assistance figuring which way is out. Divers who go to far too fast will likely not have the advantage of being able to successfully referencing the cave.

If other divers, such as your buddy come across your safety reel tied to the mainline and see the configuration you have left behind s/he will know what has taken place - this configuration on the line is unique and other divers should recognize immediately that a diver has been lost off the line and has relocated it. When they see your directional marker they too will know if you have ventured further into the cave, or correctly found your way out.

What is there that is so all mightily difficult, either to do or to remember? What was it that I need to do within a cave diving class that will better equip me than I can do for myself to perfom or remeber any of these steps? Seriously, can't you do better than this? BTW: the idea that I cant have cave access without a card is, we both know, is serious BS. I can go try this out in any number of subsea lava tubes first thing in the morning, if the passion moved me.

This is supposed to be difficult? Am I supposed to panic and pee my suit? I've run more miles of twine through my fingers underwater than any cave diver that know just laying transects and handling the tether on blue water dives. Am I supposed to be cowed by the prospect of a little line work? If this is what you guys see as scary or difficult, it is no wonder that you need help to learn it.

 

[Doppler]

Okay, so maybe I suck severely at the search function, but I cannot find out why . .

" . . .must begin the dive with an air supply of at least 58cf."

58???

From where came that odd number?

It seems incredibly low for someone that can go out on the main line.


Everything else makes sense . . . but 58 cu ft . . .

Perhaps from 150 bar in an 11 litre cylinder?