NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[PfcAJ]

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

That's great. Someone knows the steps. I can read the steps on how to drive a Formula 1 car, I have been driving for 20 years, and I used to race road courses. Heck, I should be able to jump right in the Formula 1 car and be a champ.

I have done lost line drills more times then I can remember, with and without an instructor present. However, the one time in Mexico when the **** hit the fan, I was very glad I had a formal education and not just read about it on the internet. I was able to perform the drill and get out of the cave safely.

Bingo

 

[CaveMD]

He said cave divers, not aquatic cave moles.

Touche

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[cavemn]

Kevin if you want cave conservation, either buy them so you have the power to control who dives them (that will never happen) or shut them down so no one can dive them ever again (that will never happen).

How does it have to be that all cave orgs cannot get along, oh I see for the most part they all due just the newest one thinks they govern the rest.

Ice diving is just another form of diving, and you are clipped to a surface line in some applications, diving is dangerous no matter what kind of dive you go on.

Classes are for people that have not obtained self survival in there life. Experience and aware of your surroundings is all you need.

I find there is very little info learned in diving deaths, its just the mystery of what was the mistake they made to due them selves in. Answer is do not make a mistake and you will surface.

Thal is correct you need not a cert card to do dives, it is just a merit badge. Instruction is good for those who never dive. Also it is for those who like to be in a group and get involved with others.

But I got to tell you to sit on this thread and say that a cave org is not safe diving with a single tank is stupid, and they will still do it so to get divers involved, of course that is pfcaj plan to get that out of the equation, so he will have less cave divers.

I see how this plays out, when they started here in seattle with the kent shop, After two safety divers post that all this org is doing is getting us to pay for there charters and there diving, till we get a pass on a ton of dives. I am pretty sure these divers are now very good tech and wreck and cave divers at this point, and they did it on there own.

The diver I dive with got a OW card 30 Years later to vacation dive cause they started asking for them.

Even with all of the broken English it is apparent that ignorance is bliss

 

[Dive-aholic]

what have I said that you disagree with? you think the cave agencies are doing just fine training divers? think long and hard about that before you answer.

the rest of your post is nonsense. no point responding to it.

What you guys aren't getting is that Jax is just questioning to learn. She has no intent to dive in the overhead environment with a single cylinder. Yet you keep ragging her for talking about it.

There are issues with all dive training, not just cave training. When instructors are made based on who they are or know, when non internshiped crossovers are allowed, when instructor audits aren't done and you have instructors who may have been great at one point but no longer are, there are issues. If you know how to eliminate them do tell. And don't just spout off some solution that will only work in an ideal world. Keep reality in mind.

 

[CaveMD]

What you guys aren't getting is that Jax is just questioning to learn. She has no intent to dive in the overhead environment with a single cylinder. Yet you keep ragging her for talking about it.

There are issues with all dive training, not just cave training. When instructors are made based on who they are or know, when non internshiped crossovers are allowed, when instructor audits aren't done and you have instructors who may have been great at one point but no longer are, there are issues. If you know how to eliminate them do tell. And don't just spout off some solution that will only work in an ideal world. Keep reality in mind.

I think we should forgo tanks altogether and just stage air filled milk jugs.

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[JamesK]

I think we should forgo tanks altogether and just stage air filled milk jugs.

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LOL. That's pretty funny. They work for BC's in the past. Why not tanks!?!?!


Please note that I am not condoning this practice. I just thought it was funny.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Even with all of the broken English it is apparent that ignorance is bliss

Yep, i might have the first candidate for my ignore list. Trying to figure out what he is saying is just too painful.

 

[LiteHedded]

What you guys aren't getting is that Jax is just questioning to learn. She has no intent to dive in the overhead environment with a single cylinder. Yet you keep ragging her for talking about it.

There are issues with all dive training, not just cave training. When instructors are made based on who they are or know, when non internshiped crossovers are allowed, when instructor audits aren't done and you have instructors who may have been great at one point but no longer are, there are issues. If you know how to eliminate them do tell. And don't just spout off some solution that will only work in an ideal world. Keep reality in mind.

no I get that. she said it plenty of times. there are lots of other things she said that I took issue with.

but at this point we're just going in circles...

 

[Thalassamania]

Good job, you listed steps. I think you'll find application in the real world a bit more difficult than mashing some keys. And you missed some finer points which I will let you ponder.

Like I said, its a lot easier to cave dive from your computer. And if you think a lava tube is the same thing as an average Fl or Mexico cave, come take a field trip. Until then, you're just looking like a clown. In fact, keep going. I like it when you look like a clown.

Ah, so you can't answer a simple question and instead revert to calling me names. Real cute and even more effective.

Here's the point T. If you are truly a person of higher learning then you understand the three Es; Education, Experience and Exposure. Learning takes all three to become well rounded. More of one cannot make up for the other three. It's one thing to understand the steps. It takes a little more to perform the drill with an instructor nearby. It is a whole different experience in a silt out deep in a cave with no one to save you. It takes a lot of composure, confidence and muscle memory when the clock is ticking.

Education, experience and exposure can be traded off against each other to a significant degree, though not completely. Yess it takes a lot of composure, etc., but that need not flow from a cave diving course, there are other fonts.

Thal, I would like to take you on a cave dive.
anytime you're in florida look me up and we'll go diving. if you survive it I'll listen to what you have to say.

Been there, done that, still alive, you gonna listen? No? I didn't think so.

That's great. Someone knows the steps. I can read the steps on how to drive a Formula 1 car, I have been driving for 20 years, and I used to race road courses. Heck, I should be able to jump right in the Formula 1 car and be a champ.

I have done lost line drills more times then I can remember, with and without an instructor present. However, the one time in Mexico when the **** hit the fan, I was very glad I had a formal education and not just read about it on the internet. I was able to perform the drill and get out of the cave safely.

That is just a repeate of the "transition from a Bearcat to a Sea Fury" analogy that I made earlier, only your making it more like moving from a Piper Cub to a Sea Fury, which is not what the discussion is about. If you can't tansition from what you are currently doing to Formula One, that's because the gap between the two is too big, there are too many things that you still have to learn. Now that goes to the question at hand. Look back at my "Dirk Pitt" description and then return to the question at hand, "what, specifically, does Dirk have to learn that he can only learn in a cave diving class?

no I get that. she said it plenty of times. there are lots of other things she said that I took issue with.

but at this point we're just going in circles...

Circles, yes, I get abuse and posturing but not a single straight answer.

 

[Jax]

no I get that. she said it plenty of times. there are lots of other things she said that I took issue with.

Which ones in particular?

1 - I don't have the training, experience, nor exposure to question the decision of the certification agencies.

2 - I support the current requirements, because if there was something wrong with them, agency members would be addressing them for change.

3 - The current requirements make good business sense for the agency and the student (IMO).

4 - Those that are in the high-up positions in the agencies have considered all of the arguments already and have stuck with what they have.