What is proper training?

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Neither does Adv Nitrox!!

To the rest of the members, sorry for the hijack. I will leave now, have better things to do.


Let's agree to disagree on this one. Have a great day :)

---------- Post added November 20th, 2012 at 07:24 PM ----------

Scuba diving have teeth, be careful they do bite!!!

I agree on this one (you just edited the post, so I'm responding in installments...). Let's put it this way: I probably had a not so good Basic Nitrox instructor and an outstanding Adv Nitrox instructor, and maybe that is why I have this opinion. It's not that important after all, it's all water under the bridge.

It was a thread on formal vs informal training, experience vs certification, it got completely derailed, but I appreciated the conversation.

dinner time here. speak soon
 
I've been diving with a qualified wreck instructor during a course (NOT a wreck course). He knows the wrecks inside out and knows me well and my skill level. We did some of the dives relevant to the course on wrecks. We have been occasionally penetrating the wrecks, generally in the light zone. It was just me and two TDI instructors, briefieng was extensive, we all had isolated doubles, long hose, backup lights, lines and cutting devices. We did not use the lines, because the exit was always close and visible. He showed me how bad siltouts can be.


The plan is to go back and do my wreck course with him in the spring.

My question would be why go back and pay for a course when it seems you already have quite a bit of experience diving wrecks. Is there really a lot more he's going to teach you that he hasn't already been over with you before you did the above dives? You said that what you have learned was like an informal wreck course. Sounds good to me and I agree that is exactly what you were getting. I think you have a solid foundation for doing wreck dives assuming we are talking about recreational depths. I have been doing wreck dives for years and never had a course. I did my first several wreck dives with a buddy who had a lot of experience. Like you we went over a lot of info before we ever did the dive. Save your money!



I think the key with specialities is to be guided through a new experience with someone who knows what they're doing and is capable of saving you if there are some issues. That person doesn't need to be an instructor, you don't have to sign up for a wreck class to dive wrecks. Before I was an instructor I did many wreck dives in the warm waters of Florida, including some crazy kool penetrations... ohh that word can be misused... LOL :)

Right on! There is certainly nothing wrong with taking a more formal approach to learning by taking courses. For some folks it's the best way because they may not have access to be able to dive with more erperienced divers. But you can also learn by just going with other divers who have experience in the types of dives you are interested in.
 
My question would be why go back and pay for a course when it seems you already have quite a bit of experience diving wrecks. Is there really a lot more he's going to teach you that he hasn't already been over with you before you did the above dives? You said that what you have learned was like an informal wreck course. Sounds good to me and I agree that is exactly what you were getting. I think you have a solid foundation for doing wreck dives assuming we are talking about recreational depths. I have been doing wreck dives for years and never had a course. I did my first several wreck dives with a buddy who had a lot of experience. Like you we went over a lot of info before we ever did the dive. Save your money!

Diving with him I learn stuff every day. As a returning diver I can do Deco procedures and Wreck combined, at a discount.
What I will learn is how to work with lines (which we haven't practiced yet) and better assess the risk on my own. At the price I am getting, definitely worth it.

I feel that it was safe for me to do those wreck dives with him, but if I had to be with a buddy my level, I would not be ready.

I appreciated him taking me on wrecks without the raising the "certification gate", he taught me all he could and did things safely. That is the reason why I am happy to go back and pay him to learn more. If he had told me: "no wreck card, strictly no penetration, i will not teach you stuff you are not certified for"... then i would NOT have planned to return. As with anything, I feel it takes reason and responsibility on both sides.
 
Why the hell is there a Basic Nitrox and and Advanced Nitrox course? It's the same crap.
Why is there a deep diver specialty? That is stuff that every OW should be taught, and I don't think it's crazy to take an OW diver with 30 dives to 25m.
While I do understand the importance of training, proper guidance, awareness and such, I do feel that some instructors, being very dogmatic about guielines are actually not doing themselves or the community a favor.


I learned how to clear a mask from my mother (at the age of 5), my father (who has more than 1,000 dives) taught me more than anyone else (he is not an instructor), last month I learned something about wrecks from a great instructor despite not being certified yet. And guess what? I will go back for my course and get my wreck diving certification. I have 5 cards form 2 agencies, but I don;t think it is JUST about that.

In my opinion training is a continuos and fluid process of practice, knowledge and risk assessment. You learn from instructors, from peers, from more experienced divers and you learn by being in the water. This is so much more than a card!


What do you think?

What came first? Advance Nitrox or the recreational nitrox? The recreational agency didn't have nitrox course until the late 90's. I don't know whose basic course you took but what about the other agency how do they compare to the Advance nitrox course and your basic nitrox course?
They have to cover all the material to make sure nothing was missed of forgotten over time.

As you said it about the continues and fluid process of practice, knowledge, training but try and go some were without a certification card.

That called proper training.

I think this same thinking applies to the advanced open water cert. I'm a novice, so maybe I don't understand completely. But, from where I'm sitting, AOW is a cash grab. It let's you experience one dive each of give different specialties. Big deal. What would actually help me is taking the deep specialty, and the nav specialty. But, of course, those aren't available unless you've already taken AOW.

I had a similar experience as you in my recent PADI Nitrox course.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

The AOW is not a cash grab. Divide the time and the gasline and the instructor insurance cost into what you are paying and you will see it's not a cash grab.
The Navigation course you can take without being advance certified.


Hitler isn't AOW - YouTube
 
Course overlap is common in most forms of learning. I just completed a degree and found alot of overlap with certain subjects. It can be frustrating for the fast learners, but can be beneficial to the learning process for most.
Also consider the time between courses. Maybe its been a few years and you dont have the material from your previous course, some revision would be welcomed (which is how I felt for my AOW training(.

Teaching a wide range of people with different learning abilities and backgrounds, tends to lend itself to the information overlap method to ensure most will take away the intended outcomes.
 
...I learned how to clear a mask from my mother (at the age of 5), my father (who has more than 1,000 dives) taught me more than anyone else (he is not an instructor), last month I learned something about wrecks from a great instructor despite not being certified yet. And guess what? I will go back for my course and get my wreck diving certification. I have 5 cards form 2 agencies, but I don;t think it is JUST about that.

In my opinion training is a continuos and fluid process of practice, knowledge and risk assessment. You learn from instructors, from peers, from more experienced divers and you learn by being in the water. This is so much more than a card!

What do you think?

Over the years, our Society has lost interest in apprenticeships as a path to certification (although not completely). I did my initial diver training through a Club. In the 60's, if you wanted to learn, this was the path most traveled (and still is a viable option for many). In later years, I learned to dive caves and received my instruction from a member of our dive club (George Benjamin). George is known as one of the pioneers of Cave Diving and introduced Jacques Cousteau and the crew of Calypso to the Andros Blue Holes. He wasn't an Instructor or even a certified Cave Diver. Many years later, I submitted my diving resume to CMAS (the World Underwater Federation) and challenged their Cave Instructor certification process. I was subsequently certified as a Cave Instructor. My point is, that some international diver certification Agencies recognize training and experience gained through other means.

I completed diver training with the Navy in the early 70's, so I have some idea of their requirements. Similarly, I've certified Navy Divers (whom I have dived with over the years) with recreational diving certifications. I have no reservations as to their competence and in my opinion, they have more than met the criteria for diver certification (without taking a recreational diver training program).

Today diver certification has become big business. In other words, some people make a lot of money out of it. That said, I don't believe that this is evil, as long as the customer is provided with training that provides value and promotes the safety of the individual in the local diving conditions. In some situations, this isn't being done (imo). As this is a discussion currently underway on another thread, I won't elaborate further...

As you already know from your parents, you can learn from a non-certified instructor. In-fact it has been my experience, that some of the best instructors aren't necessarily the ones who hold an Instructor's card. More forward by diving with competent and experienced divers. Thumb a dive when you feel uncomfortable and progress at your own pace. If it suits you to take a course, go for it. For most people, this is often the easiest way of obtaining the skills required to undertake a dive of this type safely (but not the only way).

As far as wreck diving is concerned, I've been on a number of the World's most challenging wrecks. Many of the people I've dove with haven't been 'certified' wreck divers. For them, I suppose they felt it unnecessary. If they ever want one, I certainly wouldn't have a problem in issuing them one...
 
When you are looking at a proposed dive, I think there are a couple of questions you need to ask yourself:

1. Do I have enough INFORMATION to do this dive? This one can be difficult, because sometimes you don't know how much information you need. For example, Basic Nitrox will tell you how to figure out whether the mix you have is safe for the depth of the dive you intend to do, but it doesn't tell you if you have enough gas (unless you take it from someone like my husband, who includes that stuff in the class), and it certainly tells you nothing about how to execute decompression, should you incur it. The person who has never encountered the concept of gas management may be rather unpleasantly surprised when his buddy has a freeflow at the far end of a wreck, and the two of them don't have enough gas to get back to the upline, because nobody explained how to figure out what you need to do that. Similarly, the person who has never been in a cave or taken a class may be completely unaware that the bottoms of caves may be deep, fine silt, that will blow the viz if you get into it (had someone make exactly that comment to me the other day).

2. Do you have the diving SKILLS needed for that dive? For your light penetrations, I'm sure you had to use some kind of non-silting propulsion technique, and if you were diving doubles, you need to know how to manage failures. If you're going into deco, you need to be able to solve problems underwater, while maintaining your buoyancy and keeping to your schedule. People don't always even think about the issues they could run into, and whether they have the poise and the competence to handle them.

You can acquire both information and skill through classes, through experience, and through mentoring. The biggest problem with using experience alone is that you don't know what you don't know; holes in your information (and in your skills) may not be apparent to you, because you don't know what you actually need. Classes, when taught to standards, at least ensure you have been exposed to the material that the agency thinks is necessary to do dives you are certified to do. Mentoring can be useful, as well, so long as the mentor himself knows what he's doing.

Requiring certain training to do certain dives is also a way to slow down the diver's progression into more difficult territory. I disagree with the OP about, for example, having an OW class include information on deep diving. The new OW diver is often a little shaky, hesitant, or even anxious. He has no sense of how quickly he will use gas.
He does not need to have the stress of his first diving problem (and we all have them!) occurring at a depth that is adding to his worry, or where his ability to respond is compromised by narcosis. Telling someone they have to wait to do a 130 foot dive until they have gotten through AOW and Deep at least ensures that they will have 8 or more additional dives beyond OW class, before they get into that situation.

However, requiring classes for everything is crazy. I have had divers tell me they can't do a night dive with me, because they haven't taken the class. I also recently had the experience of having someone tell me they wouldn't dive stages with me in a cave, because I didn't have a stage cert. Never mind that I took a class that included stage training, and that I worked into doing it and have been doing it for a couple of years :)
 
Proper training comes from a variety of sources, including books, class room instruction, on line instruction, and with each, and most importantly, diving itself. Diving with a competent cave diver to get knowledge and experience is what one does in class, but can also do out of class. Caving presents an area where training is essential for safety, and that training cannot be self taught. Other "specialties," like deep (but not deco) diving, dry suit diving, etc. may lend themselves to be developed without a formal class, but a course is always useful. Taking a course alone is not, in my opinion, enough to independently dive in a highly specialized, heightened danger environment like a cave or even wreck penetration. For those, a proper class and experience with other experienced divers leading dives will lead to competence to make those kinds of dives independently. Areas where special equipment, special planning, additional safety considerations, and even different movement techniques may be required suggest more training than some may care for, including additional dives beyond a basic course. But proper training is training that a diver needs to become competent and safe in diving in a given environment independent of an outside leader. That's my view. One might think that less is needed to be a "tag along" only, on dives led by more qualified divers, but each diver still needs to know what to do in the event of emergency, separation, or other situations that can arise. Everyone on the dive needs to be competent, to protect themselves and to be a buddy to others.
DivemasterDennis
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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