So why is my LDS so excited about sidemount all of a sudden?

[Colliam7]

it's a 6 foot drop to get in, so all bottles have to be handed in by rope if the divers can't get in by themselves kitted up.

I am interested in the experiences of various boats, with SM divers. Do you encounter SM divers who don't want to / can't do an entry (giant stride) with tanks clipped on?

The last time one of my DM's hauled up someone's gear because they couldn't climb the ladder with their gear on, the boat went up while the gear didn't, and I bought the deckhand a rotator cuff and never had him crew for me again. Not only did I lose a great crewmember, rotator cuffs aren't cheap. It's is to my (and my insurance company's advantage) for me to just say "you gotta be in good enough shape to actually go diving. If you physically aren't able, we aren't the boat for you."

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the background - it really provides helpful context for your comments.

 

[scubadada]

Sorry, a question out of ignorance, I've never been on a boat with SM divers. Do most divers enter and exit the water with both cylinders attached or are they attached and unattached in the water? In very heavy seas I'm not sure I would want to deal with the cylinders in the water and seems like one would want at least one cylinder available in case one was thrown back into the water from the ladder. Likewise, when a rapid descent is needed, seems like one would really like to enter the water with cylinders already attached and ready to go. Maybe I'm wrong, but manueveing around the boat with 2 side mounted cylinders would seem to be more difficult than a single back mounted cylinder, perhaps more like regular doubles, certainly, the weight is about the same.

Thanks, Craig

 

[JamesK]

Sorry, a question out of ignorance, I've never been on a boat with SM divers. Do most divers enter and exit the water with both cylinders attached or are they attached and unattached in the water? In very heavy seas I'm not sure I would want to deal with the cylinders in the water and seems like one would want at least one cylinder available in case one was thrown back into the water from the ladder. Likewise, when a rapid descent is needed, seems like one would really like to enter the water with cylinders already attached and ready to go. Maybe I'm wrong, but manueveing around the boat with 2 side mounted cylinders would seem to be more difficult than a single back mounted cylinder, perhaps more like regular doubles, certainly, the weight is about the same.

Thanks, Craig

For me it is easier to maneuver with SM tanks then BM tanks due to the lower center of gravity. I regularly climb out of caves and up steps with both tanks mounted. Even on a boat ladder it is easier. At times. Depending on the boat the width of my body with the tanks can be difficult in narrow areas. Also coming up ladders can be difficult if they have a narrow opening at top. You have to turn sideways a lot. Furthermore, clipping in to tanks topside and unclipping can be more difficult compared to just sitting down and coming out of a harness. With practice it can be done easier, but BM still has it best IMO.

 

[Wookie]

I am interested in the experiences of various boats, with SM divers. Do you encounter SM divers who don't want to / can't do an entry (giant stride) with tanks clipped on? Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the background - it really provides helpful context for your comments.

Because we don't allow doubles on recreational trips, I only see sidemount divers on tech trips. Because we cater mostly to rebreather divers, we rarely see open circuit divers. For the kind of trips we prefer to do, the gas bill for OC divers typically runs $700 to $1,000 per trip. Rebreather divers run a gas bill of ....nothing. The gas cost is insignificant compared to the trip cost, so I throw the gas in.

I've had 2 sidemount divers on my tech trips, both on the Oriskany. Rob Neto was one of them, and he was in the advanced learning stages at the time, and also doing his trimix instructor qualifications. The other was Lee Ann Waggener, who has a bad back. Rob was fine, no issues with steel 111's or 112's or 105's sidemount. Lee Ann had some trouble as I remember negotiating the hand holds and rails at the top of the ladder. They are built for single tank OC divers, so having a wide stance means you will have to come through sideways. With a bad back, that twisting motion was difficult for her to do. If I set my handholds further apart, however, it would be less comfortable for my regular and far more revenue producing client.

And that's the rub. Most tech divers (or tech wannabees) want to know why they can't bring doubles on a recreational boat, because they want to practice, or why I discourage sidemount, or why can't I modify the boat to do (whatever). I can, and it isn't expensive to make these changes, but for every one who wants something special, I have 20 that want what I offer. If I let a team on with doubles, then the other 22 have just a little less space. If I encourage sidemount divers to come along, everyone else has to wait just a little longer to get in. Is it a big deal if I have 1 or 2? No, of course not, but when I have 10 or 12, now we are making a real impact. This dive boat is a business, and if I offer the 22 excellent diving, great food, and comfortable bunks, well then, the business is going to make money. If I let the 22 know that I really don't care about their comfort in deference to the 1 or 2 who want something special, who also pay the same price, then that word will get around too. And it really works that way. You should hear the grumbling when someone holds up the line because they are fiddling with their camera, or can't get their fins on (again), or whatever.

Answer is, everyone jumps in in all of their kit, ready to submerge. Many times we are hot dropping the Wilkes Barre or some other deep high current wreck. We don't climb in and wait for someone to hand us stuff. The Oriskany diving is from a mooring, and Rob went in with 2 sidemount, 2 stages, and a scooter. I jump with BM doubles, a scooter, and an 80 and 40 stage.

 

[JamesK]

Wookie,

Would you allow a single tank side mount diver on your recreational trips if they needed no assistance or special care?

Thanks

 

[Wookie]

You can come monkey diving for all I care. Yes, I have no problems with sidemount singles, and you can even carry a 40 on the other side if you like. I think Netdoc is coming for my birthday party next month and he will be our first recreational sidemount diver. I will be prying his other 80 from his cold, dead fingers if I have to....

 

[616fun]

Because we don't allow doubles on recreational trips, I only see sidemount divers on tech trips. Because we cater mostly to rebreather divers, we rarely see open circuit divers. For the kind of trips we prefer to do, the gas bill for OC divers typically runs $700 to $1,000 per trip. Rebreather divers run a gas bill of ....nothing. The gas cost is insignificant compared to the trip cost, so I throw the gas in.

I've had 2 sidemount divers on my tech trips, both on the Oriskany. Rob Neto was one of them, and he was in the advanced learning stages at the time, and also doing his trimix instructor qualifications. The other was Lee Ann Waggener, who has a bad back. Rob was fine, no issues with steel 111's or 112's or 105's sidemount. Lee Ann had some trouble as I remember negotiating the hand holds and rails at the top of the ladder. They are built for single tank OC divers, so having a wide stance means you will have to come through sideways. With a bad back, that twisting motion was difficult for her to do. If I set my handholds further apart, however, it would be less comfortable for my regular and far more revenue producing client.

And that's the rub. Most tech divers (or tech wannabees) want to know why they can't bring doubles on a recreational boat, because they want to practice, or why I discourage sidemount, or why can't I modify the boat to do (whatever). I can, and it isn't expensive to make these changes, but for every one who wants something special, I have 20 that want what I offer. If I let a team on with doubles, then the other 22 have just a little less space. If I encourage sidemount divers to come along, everyone else has to wait just a little longer to get in. Is it a big deal if I have 1 or 2? No, of course not, but when I have 10 or 12, now we are making a real impact. This dive boat is a business, and if I offer the 22 excellent diving, great food, and comfortable bunks, well then, the business is going to make money. If I let the 22 know that I really don't care about their comfort in deference to the 1 or 2 who want something special, who also pay the same price, then that word will get around too. And it really works that way. You should hear the grumbling when someone holds up the line because they are fiddling with their camera, or can't get their fins on (again), or whatever.

Answer is, everyone jumps in in all of their kit, ready to submerge. Many times we are hot dropping the Wilkes Barre or some other deep high current wreck. We don't climb in and wait for someone to hand us stuff. The Oriskany diving is from a mooring, and Rob went in with 2 sidemount, 2 stages, and a scooter. I jump with BM doubles, a scooter, and an 80 and 40 stage.

I agree on all but one point. How is a doubles diver taking more room on rec charter? Every rec trip I've done in doubles means I set up my gear once and do both dives on the same set. If I need more gas i add an AL80 to sling (and yes - I can climb a boat ladder in my LP104s and a slung 80). Adding the 80 still gives me the same bench profile as a 3 tank diver. I don't add space because my doubles take the same bench space as every other single tank diver swapping tanks between dives. I'd think set up and break down would actually make that diver more efficient.

Not being snide. Just asking. Maybe your rec doubles divers are Hoovers.

 

[JamesK]

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Wookie]

I agree on all but one point. How is a doubles diver taking more room on rec charter? Every rec trip I've done in doubles means I set up my gear once and do both dives on the same set. If I need more gas i add an AL80 to sling (and yes - I can climb a boat ladder in my LP104s and a slung 80). Adding the 80 still gives me the same bench profile as a 3 tank diver. I don't add space because my doubles take the same bench space as every other single tank diver swapping tanks between dives. I'd think set up and break down would actually make that diver more efficient.

Not being snide. Just asking. Maybe your rec doubles divers are Hoovers.

We're a liveaboard. One tank is all you get. Over and over and over again.

 

[flots am]

We're a liveaboard. One tank is all you get. Over and over and over again.

If someone wanted to bring a sidemount rig and needed an extra tank, would you bring on an extra, or is "one tank" a hard rule?

flots.

Edit: Nevermind. I just saw this: ". I think Netdoc is coming for my birthday party next month and he will be our first recreational sidemount diver. I will be prying his other 80 from his cold, dead fingers if I have to....

"