Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[danvolker]

Which goes to the standard deviation in the "average" newly minted OW diver... There are good instructors, and good students, and the result is very good, even with 2 of these newly minted, buddied together...
And then the other side, when a lousy instructor, trains a poor candidate, and another poor instructor trains a Never-Ever.....if these two newly minted buddy together, it is an invitation to let Dandy Don write up a new accident report!

 

[DaleC]

What is the right plan?

If you are on a boat with like minded people, or your default buddy, making a plan that includes sharing resources may be right.

If you are on a boat with people from various or unknown backgrounds making a plan that includes self sufficiency may be right.

But here's a question: If you make a well thought out team oriented dive plan and a third, less well organized person stumbles upon you underwater and needs your resources to surface are they a liability or are you enjoying the synergy? When you are back on the boat will you pat them on the back and say all is forgiven or will you rip them a strip for f_cking up your very expensive technical dive?

I think John's intent was to discourage that divers behavior ahead of time instead of lecturing him about it afterwards.
I see some others putting their heads in the sand and being a little self-righteous by insisting that situation would never happen to them.

When my kid started drinking I told him: Don't call me if you get thrown in jail, cause I'm not coming to bail you out.
I could have said: Hey, we're a family and I will always be there for you no matter what... but I was going for effect.

 

[nimoh]

-when viewed through a DIR lens.

sure, I have DIR lenses, but I am sincerely interested in other points of view. Care to enlighten me?

Or perhaps the other group is not well defined, nothing wrong with that either, but surely the other group doesn't encompass ALL other divers. Is there some definition to it?

 

[lowviz]

Which goes to the standard deviation in the "average" newly minted OW diver... There are good instructors, and good students, and the result is very good, even with 2 of these newly minted, buddied together...
And then the other side, when a lousy instructor, trains a poor candidate, and another poor instructor trains a Never-Ever.....if these two newly minted buddy together, it is an invitation to let Dandy Don write up a new accident report!

Christ, Dan. I have to agree with you.

---------- Post added March 20th, 2013 at 10:43 PM ----------

sure, I have DIR lenses, but I am sincerely interested in other points of view. Care to enlighten me?

Or perhaps the other group is not well defined, nothing wrong with that either, but surely the other group doesn't encompass ALL other divers. Is there some definition to it?

Really simple. You call the boat and the captain knows you and how you dive. You either get a seat or the "boat is full".

 

[danvolker]

What is the right plan?

If you are on a boat with like minded people, or your default buddy, making a plan that includes sharing resources may be right.

If you are on a boat with people from various or unknown backgrounds making a plan that includes self sufficiency may be right.

But here's a question: If you make a well thought out team oriented dive plan and a third, less well organized person stumbles upon you underwater and needs your resources to surface are they a liability or are you enjoying the synergy? When you are back on the boat will you pat them on the back and say all is forgiven or will you rip them a strip for f_cking up your very expensive technical dive?

I think John's intent was to discourage that divers behavior ahead of time instead of lecturing him about it afterwards.
I see some others putting their heads in the sand and being a little self-righteous by insisting that situation would never happen to them.

When my kid started drinking I told him: Don't call me if you get thrown in jail, cause I'm not coming to bail you out.
I could have said: Hey, we're a family and I will always be there for you no matter what... but I was going for effect.

I would say don't get on a tech charter with a bunch of unknowns. If you don't have enough tech buddies to charter a 20 pack boat, there are 12 packs and 6 packs....

If it is just a 100 foot dive with a a normal recreational complement, and one of these hoovers gas and you bail them out....this is only one dive, you will have so many more that losing this one to save the poor diver is no big deal.

This could never endanger you....you have plenty of gas, and the difficulty in helping is nothing.

We are having this discussion on a recreational thread, so this should really be the more applicable of the two examples.

 

[DevonDiver]

A 5x increase will debauch virtually any gas plan, RBs included....

That was kinda the point I was making. Even the best, most comprehensive, gas plans can't cover every eventuality. Some people on the thread seem to believe that they will...

I dove with a (huge) German divemaster for months in Thailand. He always seemed very 'together' with his diving. I trusted him...and did take him on some aggressive/beyond NDL/deep dives. My trust is not easily earned. One day, on a run-of-the-mill recreational dive, he got attacked by a particularly vicious titan triggerfish. It chased him for about 200m lateral, at a depth of ~20m. The big guy, with big lungs, sucked down an AL80 from near-full to fumes in a matter of minutes (the time it took him to sprint-fin 200m, under attack). His air consumption at that time shocked me deeply... it was beyond anything I'd ever encountered...or encountered since. Other than that instance, I had no indication that he was anything other than a very diligent, professional diver (one of the better DMs I dove with in Thailand)...but the event showed he had a stress tolerance...and when exceeded, it blew his SAC to enormous proportions.

I believe that we all have a stress tolerance. I also believe it's hard to predict that tolerance - someone might be good 99% of the time... but still go to pieces on a given day, or for a given reason. Comfort zones vary, but we all have one...eventually.

What I read in Chatterton's article is a simple acceptance that there are factors which can come into play that exceed even the most carefully and conservatively planned parameters. When that happens, you've got hard decisions to make... and self-survival becomes the over-riding mission. There can be situations where assistance can neither be given, nor received. If those situations arise, the survivor is the one who's sufficiently self-reliant.

IMHO, none of thread applies to recreational diving. If you have direct access to the surface... with minimal nitrogen loading... then there's no reason to die. Team diving improves safety. That's undeniable. Without a solid or heavy-deco overhead, it should never be an issue of fatality though. If the surface is a long time away... then the situation changes. When that situation does change, it pays not to have blind faith in any gas plan, or contingency, which is necessarily based on some expectations of 'norm'.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

I dove with a (huge) German divemaster for months in Thailand. He always seemed very 'together' with his diving. I trusted him...and did take him on some aggressive/beyond NDL/deep dives. My trust is not easily earned. One day, on a run-of-the-mill recreational dive, he got attacked by a particularly vicious titan triggerfish. It chased him for about 200m lateral, at a depth of ~20m. The big guy, with big lungs, sucked down an AL80 from near-full to fumes in a matter of minutes (the time it took him to sprint-fin 200m, under attack). His air consumption at that time shocked me deeply... it was beyond anything I'd ever encountered...or encountered since. Other than that instance, I had no indication that he was anything other than a very diligent, professional diver (one of the better DMs I dove with in Thailand)...but the event showed he had a stress tolerance...and when exceeded, it blew his SAC to enormous proportions.

Assuming that he is nearly OOG at this point and is anywhere near his buddy/team, there should still be enough gas to get the divert o the surface from depth safely. His breathing should drop considerably and be within a safe range, keeping in mind most teams double EACH divers SAC rate(which if I'm at .35 I'm still figuring 1.00 x 2 divers).

 

[DevonDiver]

Assuming that he is nearly OOG at this point and is anywhere near his buddy/team, there should still be enough gas to get the divert o the surface from depth safely. His breathing should drop considerably and be within a safe range, keeping in mind most teams double EACH divers SAC rate(which if I'm at .35 I'm still figuring 1.00 x 2 divers).

As I said... I don't believe this thread on self-sufficiency has great relevance to recreational diving. It was merely an example of the potential for SAC acceleration under stress.

The point I'm making... in regard to cast-iron reliance on team gas plans as the ultimate fail-safe is ably demonstrated in your response... the word "should" features noticeably

 

[ScubaInChicago]

As I said... I don't believe this thread on self-sufficiency has great relevance to recreational diving. It was merely an example of the potential for SAC acceleration under stress.

The point I'm making... in regard to cast-iron reliance on team gas plans as the ultimate fail-safe is ably demonstrated in your response... the word "should" features noticeably

There's always the option to close the manifold and seperate the tanks....What's yours is yours and mine is mine , and maybe I'll crack it open part way through to show good faith.

 

[DevonDiver]

What's yours is yours and mine is mine...

I think that's kinda what John was considering in his article..