Why isn't the Freedom Plate DIR compliant?

[Peter_C]

All sarcasm asside, do you see why that sort of philosophy and structure will never become dominant? People like choices and they like individuality.
Even though GUE training and gear choices are very good, there are a lot of other really good gear choices and training also and just as appropriate for the environment dived.
I think you guys are denying yourselves the opportunity and joy of growing and adapting to new ideas and products.

Eric, I think you keep missing many of us saying there are lots of possibilities for gear choices, and especially colors. For instance there is no rule of everything must be black. That is a made up internet lore like so many others. In fact TsandM wears bright yellow fins, that are easily seen underwater. You have seen my orange drysuit, and I know many others that dive red and blue drysuits. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Brand choice is just that, a choice. No one has ever come to me and said hey you should be diving this brand of fins, or that brand of reg. They have to function in the environment being dove, and not create any issues, but that is about it. You are not going to see a GUE person diving with a big honking knife on the OUTSIDE of their leg, but I don't expect you to wear one there either, as it is a safety issue.

Adeline's gear is fully GUE compliant, and is a complete hodge podge of equipment. As you know she also dives one of your plates, set up the exact same way you set them up. Same goes for my friend Gorkem, but you weren't selling plates at the time so he wound up with a HOG BP/W, and at some point he probably will upgrade to one of your plates...

Instead of asking for acceptance from anyone, what about just saying your plate is Hogarthian, and ready for most any type of single tank diving, and the Freedom Plate is far more comfortable than any other plate, try one for yourself and see. If you don't like it, send it back for a full refund. As you said for many it is not about the cost of the item.

Heck send TsandM one to play with. She will give you 100% honest feedback, good or bad. After all she was eying my plate at Gerstle one day. I should have let them try it out, but didn't think about it until later. Doh!

 

[JamesK]

Eric,

You are letting negativity cloud your responses. Your sarcasm and anger are ruining your message. I don't see anywhere that anyone posted that your plate would be scorned by GUE divers, or any of the claims you posted. I know it was all said in sarcasm, but even in sarcasm lies truth. If you want your plate accepted, go after the divers. Go after the individuals who will actually use the plate. Heck, if I was looking for a new singles plate, yours would be one that I try. Most of us own a variety of plates for different uses. I owned quite a few for a while for different uses depending on tanks and exposure protection.

Just keep trying to sell your plate, an do not let negative attitudes prevail.

James.

 

[PfcAJ]

So I think what you really want to hear is that the Freedom Plate is DIR and you're a champion of gear manufacturers, and its recommended for all GUE courses. Anything else just won't do. Screw standardization, the system, flexibility, and the other DIR principals.

Sorry man. We'll just be over here being narrow minded, dogmatic, unyielding, snooty, elitist, black gear wearing zealots that are too good to use your perfect product. We get it.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Rather than GUE, have you considered talking to AG at UTD? I think he seems a little less rigid and more open to new ideas. Plus, they seem to be really moving towards marketing the recreational diver movement, which seems to be more along the lines of your BP. He seems to really like streamlined stuff so maybe he would be more receptive to your plate?

Great idea.

---------- Post added November 2nd, 2013 at 03:35 PM ----------

So I think what you really want to hear is that the Freedom Plate is DIR and you're a champion of gear manufacturers

I am one of many gear manufacturers who are proud of what we do and want to contribute to diving. I didn't originally understand why my plate wasn't compliant for single tank use when it meets all criteria for certain situations.

and its recommended for all GUE courses. Anything else just won't do.

Again, not for all GUE courses, only for single tank applications, and why not be able to mount argon on the side of the tank? you do with doubles, what's the difference?

Screw standardization, the system, flexibility, and the other DIR principals.

The only thing different is the plate. you're still using a wing, a long hose w/bugeed second, paddle fins, hog harness with everything the same, can light the same, same protocols, same buddy, same finning technique. You would have to actually look hard to see what type of plate the person is using to see it's a Freedom Plate. I don't see how using a Freedom Plate for singles would affect DIR standardization one iota.

Sorry man. We'll just be over here being narrow minded, dogmatic, unyielding, snooty, elitist, black gear wearing zealots that are too good to use your perfect product. We get it.

That sucks, sorry to hear that.
My product isn't perfect, you wont use it.

 

[RJP]

I think you guys are denying yourselves the opportunity and joy of growing and adapting to new ideas and products.

You just can't let it go, can you? Here's the deal in "duckies and horsies" for you:

1.) The vast, vast majority of GUE divers you're wanting to sell your plate to already own at least one DIR-compliant plate. Many of us own more than one.

2.) These plates we already own work perfectly well for any any and all diving that we do; from doubles with a half-dozen sling, stage, and inflation bottles to 300ft in 45F water... all the way to 50ft pretty-fishy dives with an AL80 in 87F water in board-shorts and a tee-shirt.

3.) We are NOT your customer. This has nothing to do with anything related to diving. This is the most basic marketing tenet: we don't NEED your product.

As Ted Levitt (the godfather of marketing) said: People don't buy 1/4" drill bits... they buy 1/4" holes.

If someone doesn't need a hole, it doesn't matter how shiny your drill bit is. It doesn't matter what your drill bit is made of. It doesn't matter how well-finished your drill bit is. It doesn't matter what your drill bit costs. If a person doesn't need holes... they are not your customer.

Eric, you may make a great plate. But you make a terrible marketer.

google Levitt's seminal Harvard Business Review article "Marketing Myopia" for an MBA's worth of enlightenment.

The other good read is the sign I saw hanging on the back of the door in the break room at the local Stop n Shop grocery store: "Remember, you don't ever win an argument with a customer."

Like I always say, "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

But the cat doesn't like ANY of them.

:d

 

[ams511]

Eric,

Why are you preoccupied with the GUE? While they are well represented on SB, they represent only a small portion of divers. How many divers does PADI and NAUI train vs. GUE? How may technical diving certs do they give out compared to other agencies? I think when you find the answer you will see that the GUE only represents a very small portion of your target market. Also I have never heard of them "approving" gear.

My advice is to consider a smaller market when you are starting out for example, rebreathers. That to me would seem to be an ideal market because these people spend long times underwater so comfort is important and they spend megabucks on gear. Just a thought.

 

[PfcAJ]

Eric, do you get that it IS ok for single tank, but the recommendation is for gear that can be used for singles or doubles? I think that's the disconnect. You're seeking approval for something that just doesn't meet the flexibility criteria needed for approval. Why would I (or anyone) recommend someone to buy a piece of equipment that they're just going to need to replace should they progress in diving when they could buy a regular plate and skip the foreplay?

The argon thing is quite secondary, in my opinion, but mounting it on the tank increases the dives profile quite a bit and it can (and does) catch on things. I once got my argon bottle caught on some line and it nearly ate my lunch. Its not great. Why put it there if you don't have to?

 

[danvolker]

One place I sharply disagree with GUE is this notion of gear that will allow a diver to progress into tech or cave. PfcAJ is absolutely right that this IS a big deal to GUE....and of course, It was originally conceived of to take over the training of WKPP divers for cave or deep ocean.

The issue to me is the suggestion that it is "progress" that divers should expect or desire. In fact, this would not be "progress" to 90% or more of the world's divers. They don't want it, don't care about it, and would rather practice getting good at things they want to do, than practice for tech or cave--when they absolutely have no interest in it. Again, AJ I am not disagreeing with you--it is the GUE Concept of what all divers should become.

I think classes like Fundies could help the big 90% or more of the world's divers--this is an important market they are "blowing" by the ludicrous suggestion that most of these people should buy doubles and tech gear--ever.


We should have a DIR understanding class for recreational divers....and better than just DIR, because GUE has some amazing instructors.

So for Eric, this should be something that JJ or others involved in policy should step back and take a look at....Does GUE really want a larger slice of the world's divers, to make them better with Fundies or the Primer class ( with the expectation that this is it--that the masses will not want any further training by GUE, but will be better forever because of it) ..This would be a better direction for GUE to take, in my opinion.
The alternative, is to make it clear that Fundies and GUE is really about tech or cave, and GUE does not give a rat's a*s about helping recreational divers be better recreational divers....and this IS what Eric is offering.......it was what George and Bill and I wanted for DIR and recreational divers--for us, it was not about how many WKPP divers we could create with our DIR videos or internet posts , or in person DIR demos.

 

[PfcAJ]

Dan, I think you make a great point. From my perspective, GUE offers a lot to folks who don't have a desire to continue, as does DIR.

If the Freedom plate is prohibited, I'd take issue with that. It shouldn't be "prohibited" for OW single tank classes, in my opinion (I don't speak for GUE), but I fully see why its not 'recommended'. I have a pair of Tusa Imprex fins. They're not prohibited, but heavy rubber runs are the 'recommendation'. This is somewhat similar, imo.

 

[BVickery]

One place I sharply disagree with GUE is this notion of gear that will allow a diver to progress into tech or cave. PfcAJ is absolutely right that this IS a big deal to GUE....and of course, It was originally conceived of to take over the training of WKPP divers for cave or deep ocean.

The issue to me is the suggestion that it is "progress" that divers should expect or desire. In fact, this would not be "progress" to 90% or more of the world's divers. They don't want it, don't care about it, and would rather practice getting good at things they want to do, than practice for tech or cave--when they absolutely have no interest in it. Again, AJ I am not disagreeing with you--it is the GUE Concept of what all divers should become.

I think classes like Fundies could help the big 90% or more of the world's divers--this is an important market they are "blowing" by the ludicrous suggestion that most of these people should buy doubles and tech gear--ever.


We should have a DIR understanding class for recreational divers....and better than just DIR, because GUE has some amazing instructors.

So for Eric, this should be something that JJ or others involved in policy should step back and take a look at....Does GUE really want a larger slice of the world's divers, to make them better with Fundies or the Primer class ( with the expectation that this is it--that the masses will not want any further training by GUE, but will be better forever because of it) ..This would be a better direction for GUE to take, in my opinion.
The alternative, is to make it clear that Fundies and GUE is really about tech or cave, and GUE does not give a rat's a*s about helping recreational divers be better recreational divers....and this IS what Eric is offering.......it was what George and Bill and I wanted for DIR and recreational divers--for us, it was not about how many WKPP divers we could create with our DIR videos or internet posts , or in person DIR demos.

Dan,

Very well said. I will be the first to admit I have disagreed strongly with some of your posts in the past, as well as views. But at the same time, I have to say I strongly agree with this post of yours.

I am interested in GUE/DIR style (and thanks to Dan, got a group to try with when I finally can get down south). I do hold hope to be able to do Tech, but funding wont really allow me to fully enjoy that. And caves have no real hold for me. But as others see in GUE/DIR style diving is something that will make me a vastly better diver. With an increasein better divers I would think that 1) diver fatalities would decrease some. How many fatalities are the cause of diver error? 2) In coral reefs hopefully with better divers will see a reduction in their destructions.

Also, aiming for better quality divers all around is never a bad thing in my eyes.