Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[RJP]

You cannot know that the loaner knew it would be taken into the cave.

I've seen people borrow equipment as a try before you buy. We don't know what story Spivey gave.

The lender knew they were cave diving, and knew the son wasn't even OW certified, by his own statements in interviews with the media.

If I knew the father was taking his uncertified son diving - much less cave diving - I wouldn't have lent them an o-ring.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 03:40 PM ----------

As a member of the Florida cave diving community, I find that highly unlikely. The cave diving community shames its own members for minor etiquette violations on a regular basis. There is no way they would look the other way if they even suspected that an open water diver and his non-certified son were attempting what is normally a staged decompression Trimix cave dive.

Seems at least one member of the Florida cave diving community didn't get the memo...

 

[victorzamora]

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe that all publicly owned roads.....should be open to all.

Even to unlicensed, underexperienced, underage people with little to no training or oversight?

Bad divers may detract from some of diving's pleasures but rarely, if ever, present a serious danger to other divers.

Do you not think the recovery divers were placed in any danger? How about all the people that [-]lost[/-] risked their lives trying to search for Ben McDaniels? Were they not endangered by a diver? How about the panicked cavern diver that tried dragging me out during during deco (simulated, but they didn't know that)? How about the cavern divers running reels that intersected my reel NINE times between OW and gold line? How about the divers silting up the exit while another diver is exiting Eagle's Nest?

The other big thing: What about all of the dive sites closed because an irresponsible diver got himself killed? That doesn't endanger divers, but endangers divING. We're self-policing as a hobby, and I want NO government interfering with what I'm doing....so I don't want those morons closing up MY dive sites because they're too dumb to get proper training. We're lucky EN is still open.

The WORST part? Getting himself killed was bad enough, but getting his SON killed is inexcusable. THAT is a bad diver being a hazard to other people.

But, if you really think that diving licenses (government issued and managed) are the way to go, then throw your vote in for its support

That's reductio ad absurdum and/or the Slippery Slope Fallacy, as defined in EVERY book. There's a middle ground between, "Screw it....let EVERYBODY go to 233ft way back in a cave with multiple tanks, all on air, unsupervised with zero training" and "I want 250 government checkpoints making sure every piece of my gear meets the regulations of 100's of non-diving bureaucrats." Maybe dive agencies should pull certs from people that condoned the action. Maybe not. I'm opposed to the GOVERNMENT getting involved, but would be behind some self-policing policy that keeps people from condoning it. I'm also okay with people killing themselves if they're too dumb to make the right decisions (Darwin is getting wronger and wronger by the day, and nanny-states are at fault).....but not if it means government stepping in and infringing upon MY rights as a responsible diver.

As has been said, these two would've still found a way to kill themselves....I just wish there was enough INTERNAL policing to keep cries for Government intervention out of it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"One of the recovery cave divers that recovered the bodies said off camera it looked like the father and son ran out of air." They ran out of air.

Of course they ran out of air ... that's pretty much how people die in caves.

"End the dive with 500 psi" isn't an air management strategy that works in a cave. One of reasons you take the training is to learn the differences between recreational and overhead risk mitigation ... and to learn strategies that do work ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HIGHwing]

If the state would like to avoid the cost of rescue/recovery efforts in the cave, it seems to me they should close the cave to all. That would probably leave a good OW training site.

Be careful what you ask for.

Public bridges are open to all and people jump off of them occasionally. What these two did is really not significantly different than committing suicide, and I'm now 100% convinced they *both* understood the risk. I'll agree their motiviations were not aligned, but I believe they knew the risk, they did it anyway, and they died. No one would have stopped them other than by force.

BTW - I am still curious to know what was in those bottles at 130' if anyone has that piece of info.

 

[gianaameri]

Locks keep honest people honest. Criminals still cut them. The same is true for a required license. I seriously doubt a requirement for a license would have had any way of stopping this incident. It would just be one more thing to point to as just another violation.

Dead guys don't pay fines.

Yep, but it is easier to report someone without a license where one is required and that puts more pressure on the Spiveys of this world to do what it takes to get a license.

For instance, next time I see a Dad with an 11 year old diving the caves I dive I can ask if they have the "license" to do it... if they say NO, then I don't think they will dive there without discussing it with the police first!

If you do not have a "license" system in the first instance in place, then there is nothing to enforce (i.e. the current voluntary system with warning signs which people read, but lawfully can and chose to ignore has proven to be inadequate more often than not).

 

[Wookie]

How about all the people that lost their lives trying to search for Ben McDaniels? Were they not endangered by a diver?

Um. What?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suspect that driver's licenses serve more to protect the general public than the driver. Bad divers may detract from some of diving's pleasures but rarely, if ever, present a serious danger to other divers. But, if you really think that diving licenses (government issued and managed) are the way to go, then throw your vote in for its support. It would not get my support. I could even see a less restrictive compromise of the state requiring recognized Certifications for appropriate use of the facility. But the police of that would be either ineffective or expensive - probably both.

My problem is the idea of closing it to any segment of the population, like students under instructor supervision, appears to be a knee-jerk reaction with little compelling rational behind it. Some may be fooled to think it looks like it is dealing with the problem when it may not be.

Without clear and compelling reason, I believe that all publicly owned roads and dive sites (and most other facilities) should be open to all.

People make the same arguments in my area with respect to backcountry skiing on publicly own lands. It's open to all. And when someone unqualified goes back there and ends up dead, the state has to pay to have someone go in and remove the bodies. But I know of no ski school who would consider taking someone backcountry to learn how to ski, nor any ski shop that would recommend it. It's not that it's prohibited ... it's because it would, at best, be a really stupid and dangerous thing to do.

Nonetheless, every year we end up with a few less-than-qualified Darwin candidates having a less than fun time doing it ... some of them remain corpsicles until the avalanche danger is low enough to warrant sending in people to recover their bodies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 12:03 PM ----------

Um. What?

... only one guy that I'm aware of ... and even that was conjecture that he was in there chasing the reward money ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Um. What?

I am guessing Victor meant "risked their lives," but maybe not. There was one death at Vortex that I know of while the reward for his body was still being offered, and although his motivation cannot be proven, many believe he was after the reward. He was found very far back in the cave.

 

[victorzamora]

Um. What?

Boulderjohn is correct, I meant "risked." There was a lot of pressure on the McDaniels family to rescind the reward due to the risk. Larry Higgenbottom is THOUGHT to have died in search of Ben.

My point was: awap said bad divers rarely threaten other divers, I was disagreeing. Recovery divers losing their lives during recovery attempts isn't unheard of.

 

[Cleavitt]

The lender knew they were cave diving, and knew the son wasn't even OW certified, by his own statements in interviews with the media.

If I knew the father was taking his uncertified son diving - much less cave diving - I wouldn't have lent them an o-ring.

Seems at least one member of the Florida cave diving community didn't get the memo...

I already addressed that in my post, but you conveniently omitted that part when you quoted me.

You state this as though it is fact. Do you have a source for this information or are you making accusations based on your assumptions? I have read most of the news articles and they are quite vague and leave more questions than answers (typical). Here is what the news articles have quoted the recovery diver as saying...

"He approached me to be his mentor, and I told him I couldn't take him caving until he got his cave card."

"He said he loaned Spivey some equipment and urged him to take a course to get certified, but he kept putting it off.

"The sad thing is, I told him, 'One night they're going to call me to come get [your body]'"

How do you get that the recovery diver knew that the father was also planning to take his son on cave dives or diving at all? If anything, these quotes imply that the son wasn't part of the discussion at all. Otherwise, wouldn't he have said "... I told *them* to get training" or "...going to call me to come get *their* bodies"? In all three quotes the recovery diver is pushing the victim to get training. In one case, he flat out tells him that he will die without it.

Basically, you seem to be trying to imply that the cave diving community sat back and watched this happen or at least one of the recovery divers did. However, you have provided no evidence that this is the case. If you have something to add by all means please share.