Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[redacted]

If one really wants to make the case that it is unacceptably dangerous for trained search and recovery divers to enter caves for S&R, then you are really making the case for closing off all caves for all diving. It is a discretionary adventure activity. It is not like you may find a cure for cancer down there.

I believe the problem in this incident was that they were underfunded for the type of diving they were trying to do. They did not have the $$ for proper training (certification) and they did not have the $$ (or certification) for the gases they should have been using. And they made a fairly big leap beyond their previous experience of 180 feet. They probably did not monitor gas closely enough (narced probably) and the father did not carry enough gas to handle the emergency. It may have simply been a matter of calculating gas requirements for that dive with an overly optimistic SAC and not adjusting the dive plan accordingly (or recognizing the plan had gone bad).

Cave and other tech diving does not only involve higher risks, it also involves higher costs to manage those risks.

 

[HIGHwing]

If one really wants to make the case that it is unacceptably dangerous for trained search and recovery divers to enter caves for S&R, then you are really making the case for closing off all caves for all diving. It is a discretionary adventure activity. It is not like you may find a cure for cancer down there.

I believe the problem in this incident was that they were underfunded for the type of diving they were trying to do. They did not have the $$ for proper training (certification) and they did not have the $$ (or certification) for the gases they should have been using. And they made a fairly big leap beyond their previous experience of 180 feet. They probably did not monitor gas closely enough (narced probably) and the father did not carry enough gas to handle the emergency. It may have simply been a matter of calculating gas requirements for that dive with an overly optimistic SAC and not adjusting the dive plan accordingly (or recognizing the plan had gone bad).

Cave and other tech diving does not only involve higher risks, it also involves higher costs to manage those risks.

For all you know, Dillon had a free flow and couldn't handle it while Narc'ed out of his head. Dad comes over to assist and they end up in an air-share. At this point Dillon is dead already. There's only one way Dad can get out but it's pretty clear he didn't take that option, which is noble I suppose. Dad went double or nothing on making the staged gas and lost.

 

[victorzamora]

If one really wants to make the case that it is unacceptably dangerous for trained search and recovery divers to enter caves for S&R, then you are really making the case for closing off all caves for all diving.

When did I ever say it was unacceptably dangerous? I simply said that it posed a threat. Which it does. Even if you take the "threat" argument away, do you really think people should be pulled away from their families (or whatever else they were doing), especially on Christmas Day, to recover ANY bodies, much less bodies of people that shouldn't have been there at all? Absolutely not. There's simply no leg to stand on there.

As for the rest of your assessment, I absolutely agree with it as the most likely scenario. As for "higher costs to manage those risks"....most of us understand that. Most cave divers willingly pay through the nose for gear and training to ensure our safety. With lower costs come MUCH higher risks. These two are proof.

 

[PfcAJ]

Awap, you normally make a lot of sense.

today is not one of those days.

 

[victorzamora]

For all you know, Dillon had a free flow and couldn't handle it while Narc'ed out of his head. Dad comes over to assist and they end up in an air-share. At this point Dillon is dead already. There's only one way Dad can get out but it's pretty clear he didn't take that option, which is noble, I suppose. Dad went double or nothing on making the staged gas and lost.

With proper gas planning, fully puncturing BOTH of the kid's doubles while at the point of maximum penetration shouldn't have been an issue and they should've been able to make it out with no issues. That's part of gas management. Proper training (and proper gas, depending on your opinion of deep air) would have prevented this from happening as gas planning is a BASIC concept covered in training. This should be followed, narced or not.

 

[gianaameri]

With proper gas planning, fully puncturing BOTH of the kid's doubles while at the point of maximum penetration shouldn't have been an issue and they should've been able to make it out with no issues. That's part of gas management. Proper training (and proper gas, depending on your opinion of deep air) would have prevented this from happening as gas planning is a BASIC concept covered in training. This should be followed, narced or not.

Air diving in a cave at the depths Dillon reported on Cave Atlas (I am assuming it was the deceased who actually wrote that post on Cave Atlas and not another Dillon) is not proper gas planning in a cave.

It is ignorance/incompetence or suicide, no matter how much Air he/they would have taken with them.

Like driving wasted drunk AND on drugs at 150 mph or more.

 

[redacted]

When did I ever say it was unacceptably dangerous? I simply said that it posed a threat. Which it does. Even if you take the "threat" argument away, do you really think people should be pulled away from their families (or whatever else they were doing), especially on Christmas Day, to recover ANY bodies, much less bodies of people that shouldn't have been there at all? Absolutely not. There's simply no leg to stand on there.

As for the rest of your assessment, I absolutely agree with it as the most likely scenario. As for "higher costs to manage those risks"....most of us understand that. Most cave divers willingly pay through the nose for gear and training to ensure our safety. With lower costs come MUCH higher risks. These two are proof.

Ooh, was the park closed for Xmas?

I guess you decided they should not have been there because they did not have the C-card that you and a few others think they should have been required to have? No one is currently required to have a C-card to enter the park, or to dive anywhere within the park's aquatic feature. If you think that should change then push for whatever you see is the right answer. I don't see any change that is feasible that does not have more down sides than up sides. in spite of the rare but occasional deaths that have occurred and may continue to occur. As far as families and Xmas day, "duty calls", just as it did for many thousands of people who have decided to voluntarily provide a public service. And I thank all of them for the sacrifice they have chosen to make.

 

[drrich2]

"If I see a large group of divers clearly unequipped/unprepared to enter an inland cave I normally dive, I'd ask if they are cave trained (although it is obvious they are not), and if they say NO, I'd ask if they have the permission of the land owner to access the cave, and if they say NO, I'd ask them if they have a permit/license from the authorities (some caves require it), and if they say NO, I'd tell them that they cannot lawfully dive the cave, and if they proceed with their intentions I call 112 (the U.S. 911 equivalent) because they are clearly a public danger (a danger to themselves and others) and the police has a duty to intervene."

I can see the reasoning here, in the context of the greater situation, mainly if you are concerned these people may interfere with lines other people are running into the cave, jeopardizing others besides themselves.

But many people wouldn't get involved, and there are reasons why that is.

1.) Many people have enough issues of their own without looking for other peoples' troubles to get into.

2.) Taking it upon yourself to interrogate strangers when you are just Joe-blow average citizen with no police powers can be awkward.

3.) There's a very real chance you're going to seriously annoy someone. If any of these people know you, they could make trouble for you. Your dog turns up dead when you're not around, etc... I think of the stories we hear about horrendous neighbors making others lives miserable as an example of how starting trouble with people can come back to bite you.

4.) Even if you somehow manage to ask intrusive personal questions to total strangers on the spot in a remote location where they may outnumber you, for example, why would they choose to answer you? It seems likely they'd lie - sure we've got landowner permission! If you somehow intimidate them into leaving they may well be back shortly when you're not there.

Richard.

 

[boulderjohn]

If one really wants to make the case that it is unacceptably dangerous for trained search and recovery divers to enter caves for S&R, then you are really making the case for closing off all caves for all diving. It is a discretionary adventure activity. It is not like you may find a cure for cancer down there.

Body recovery is indeed difficult and dangerous, which is why certain divers who are highly skilled already receive the special training it takes. One of the most skilled of those, Edd Sorenson of Marianna, FL, has said that he normally will not take anyone with him on a recovery because of the difficulty and danger. One time when he had to make an exception because it was too much even for him, his companion wrote a powerful description of the effort it took. The diver they recovered was a basic OW diver.

That does not mean that normal cave diving is too dangerous for people who are appropriately trained for it.

Body recovery and normal adventure diving are not the same thing.

 

[victorzamora]

Air diving in a cave at the depths Dillon reported on Cave Atlas (I am assuming it was the deceased who actually wrote that post on Cave Atlas and not another Dillon) is not proper gas planning in a cave.

It is ignorance/incompetence or suicide, no matter how much Air he/they would have taken with them.

Like driving wasted drunk AND on drugs at 150 mph or more.

You'll get no arguments from me, you will from others. I was simply saying that people with proper gas planning would've/could've/should've prevented it.

---------- Post added December 30th, 2013 at 04:39 PM ----------

Ooh, was the park closed for Xmas?

Seriously, you're being incredibly unreasonable. You must be trolling on purpose.