More than "Advanced", but not really "Technical"

[waterpirate]

The navy tables I am familiar with are the ones I had to memorise in 1981. They are more aggressive than the warm and fuzzy agency tables now. That was the point I was making. To refrance those tables to the group of divers you are trying to help/defend without the knowledge of how aggressive they really are, will only confuse the punters more. All of us that moved onto non rec diving all fit the rec guy pushing the limits. It was the realisation that pushing the limits was not in our best interest tat brought us to the trough of knowledge about deco and tables. These divers in the crack between worlds must be educated to understand that a rec puter does not do deco well, and that buying a deco puter or software and not understanding how to adjust the conservancy is not in their best interest either. Say a cochran set on zero, or vplanner out of the box on zero. I do not understand the thought process that this tween uiverse is safe. If you want to do tech 1 or less dives, get tech 1 certified and go back down the ladder to where you think you want to be.
Eric

 

[DevonDiver]

get tech 1 certified and go back down the ladder to where you think you want to be.

Amen to that. Train hard, dive easy.

---------- Post added January 26th, 2014 at 12:06 AM ----------

I'm interested in what the minimum requirements are for someone who just wants to understand what happens when one crosses the line and has the gas to return, but not the knowledge...

Well, the old plastic PADI RDP covers that under emergency procedures. Or your computer will guide you up. It's a matter of luck, because you've preempted any other issues that may arise. Beyond that,.... well that's ALL about knowledge and training.... and you've been repeatedly and repeatedly told what's available and suitable.

The advice you seem to be asking for is "Read Mark Powell's Deco for Divers", then admit that your theory knowledge does not extend to practical ability.

 

[lowviz]

...//... If you want to do tech 1 or less dives, get tech 1 certified and go back down the ladder to where you think you want to be.
Eric

I just can't seem to make my point but I'll try one last time. I have taken deep, advanced EAN, deco procedures, and full cave. I've read Mark Powel's book several times along with many others. Notable books being Psychological and Behavioral Aspects of Diving, Mixed Gas Diving, and Basic Decompression by Wienke (that last book REALLY needs a different title). I AM looking at it from some reasonable level of formal training and a lot of personal interest.

Question is, was, and remains: Can (should) a purely recreational diver (read NOT ME) attempt to gain a technical mindset THROUGH FORMAL TRAINING THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE DECOMPRESSION DIVES in order to improve his/her understanding of decompression and thus improve safety?

I knew that the pat answer was "NO!" when I started this thread. I still question if one really needs a Tech I pass to appreciate the hazards of decompression, wouldn't Decompression Procedures alone be beneficial to the recreational diver? And no, I'm not re-asking that question. I asked that in post #1

Amen to that. Train hard, dive easy.

Yes, amen to that.

... admit that your theory knowledge does not extend to practical ability.

No problem, I'm far too risk averse to try any decompression idea that I have, no matter how good it sounds (to me). I dive my training and nothing else. I won't even set my computer to air and dive nitrox. Many recreational divers can't come up with two reasons why doing so could create a problem.

 

[waterpirate]

I am not talking to you, I am talking to the thread. My answer remains the same. The two worlds should stay seperate. The diver must decide in which world he/she wishes to exist. The existance in the space between te worlds should be admonished and discouraged if witnessed by those who know better.

Simply put " do not push the limits, period and dive within the warm and fuzzy puters/tables. If that is not enough, seek training to do it safely."
Eric

 

[gcarter]

Based on the way this thread has gone so far I know I will be slammed, but...

I am a recreational diver. I have no desire to do deco, tech, cave, wreck penetration, gas any more involved than 32%.

I fail to see how having knowledge of those topics suddenly puts me at risk. I find it more than a little condescending that many of the posters here take a "you can't handle it" attitude towards a desire for increased knowledge.

I find it more than a little condescending that many of the posters here think that such knowledge will result in stupid people doing stupid things. The fact is, stupid people do stupid things regardless.

I know a lot about many subject areas without suffering delusions that I can (or should, as the case may be) actually do anything safely without proper instruction. I can easily do all the academics for flying without jumping to the conclusion that I am now ready to pilot a fighter jet.

I already know a bit about deco procedures from my reading, I will continue to educate myself on this and other diving topics. Filling these gaps in my knowledge makes me a SAFER diver. Filling these gaps does not magically cause me to abandon my training, experience, or comfort levels and start taking unnecessary risks.

I ask for no permission or approval to increase my store of knowledge. Anyone who does not like that is the one with the problem, not me.

 

[waterpirate]

No one said seeking knowledge was a bad thing. It is the delusion that with that limited knowledge you can safely execute dives in the space in between rec and tec. Gaining knowledge for a contigency only or emergancy execution is a loooong way from the space in between.
Eric

 

[lowviz]

Beautifully stated gcarter. I guess the problem comes down to how to identify those that are capable of handling advanced information/knowledge/wisdom. The recreational divers that are only looking for a higher cert without truly understanding and then assimilating the knowledge poison the pot.

So we take the easy way out, no FORMAL tech training for any of you...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Self-education is laudable. The thorny issues arise when you've got an instructor potentially giving you tools that you could use to hurt yourself.

 

[boulderjohn]

I fail to see how having knowledge of those topics suddenly puts me at risk. I find it more than a little condescending that many of the posters here take a "you can't handle it" attitude towards a desire for increased knowledge.

It might not put you at any more risk, but think about it from the viewpoint of a technical instructor for a minute.

People got upset with me when I quoted that post from a technical instructor whose friends got a little tech learning, put it to use, and then died. To give you an idea of how far they went beyond their training, it will be several years before I have the qualifications for the dive they tried to do, and I have full cave training, advanced trimix certification, and tech instructor certification. In order for them to do the dive, they had to get a key to get into the site. In order to get a key to get into the site, they went to the person in charge of it and asked for it on the grounds that they had no intention of diving--they were just going to go in as good Samaritans and clean up the surface of the site, which had gotten trashed out. They swore they were not diving. Their widows sued the key operator and the company that employed him because he believed them and gave them the key. If that instructor had given them any kind of informal instruction, you can bet he would have been sued as well.

This past Christmas a father and son who had gotten some kind of instruction somewhere without taking a formal class of any kind died doing a decompression dive beyond their ability. The boy wasn't even a certified diver. In the aftermath, the boy's grandfather has tried to get the entire site closed to all divers, and if he were to succeed, one of the greatest advanced dive sites in America will be off limits to everyone because a couple of people got a little advanced training somewhere, dived well beyond their certification level, and died because of stupid mistakes that someone with the proper training would have never made. If it turns out that an identifiable person gave them that informal training, want to take bets on whether or not the family sues?

Even if he or she were to escape legal action, to you have any idea how an instructor would feel if someone who got informal, out of class instruction were to die? Do you have any idea what his or her reputation in the technical diving community would become?

Do you think that a technical diving instructor wants to do something that opens up the possibility that you will use that information and die without the legal protection provided by formal instruction?

EDIT: I did not notice Lorenzoid's post before writing this. I believe we are saying the same thing.

 

[lowviz]

Self-education is laudable. The thorny issues arise when you've got an instructor potentially giving you tools that you could use to hurt yourself.

Are you sure that you don't have that backwards?

The problem, as I see it, is the existence of both Tech 40 and Decompression Procedures. These two courses need to be eliminated for the greater good.