An Open Letter of Personal Perspective to the Diving Industry by NetDoc

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As it was explained to me by someone who was supposedly in the know, the captain of the boat is responsible for the passengers and cannot relinquish that duty to someone not in his or he employment. The boat captain should have been the subject of the lawsuit, but no deep pockets there. So under that theory, PADI never should have been involved, but that is water under the bridge.

Unless it was me who told this to you, I agree with them 100%. A poor lawyer defended PADI in this. I'm not required by insurance or anything else to carry Divemasters on the boat, and I may only carry one this year. We do not provide in-water supervision for divers, and I have a rescue diver who will make an excellent candidate. Nothing requires a Divemaster, not insurance or anything else. Insurance only requires that there is an instructor level crewmember for the type of diving being done. That's one of the 3 conditions I have to adhere to. Had one of your stories' divemasters been PADI and the other SSI, I winder if it would have been defended more vigorously?
 
Explain what you mean by "enforced."

In this case, the instructor violated standards and was expelled.

Now, you will no doubt argue that PADI should implement a multi-billion dollar program that puts inspectors all over the world, looking at classes at boy scout camps in northern Utah and all other locations to make sure that standards are being followed. You are looking forward to that and the price impact on scuba, are you?

Let's see...things that without enforcement, could cause many people..including many children, to die each year.. How about something like No enforcement of DUI rules/standards...plenty of drunk drivers with no effective enforcement to prevent it......far more accidents and deaths of innocents.....And then there is PADI, that "certifies" more instructors than any other agency, and while it tells people they can't drive drunk, does nothing to actually prevent it....er...ahh, .....has "standards" that dive instructors should follow, but absolutely no interest in making sure the standards are followed---it is actually a bad Joke at many tourism destinations with the rampant instructor violations of common sense....But hey, instructors and shops need to make money, right? Of course there needs to be collateral damage.....Livelihoods are on the line.
 
Let's see...things that without enforcement, could cause many people..including many children, to die each year.. How about something like No enforcement of DUI rules/standards...plenty of drunk drivers with no effective enforcement to prevent it......far more accidents and deaths of innocents.....And then there is PADI, that "certifies" more instructors than any other agency, and while it tells people they can't drive drunk, does nothing to actually prevent it....er...ahh, .....has "standards" that dive instructors should follow, but absolutely no interest in making sure the standards are followed---it is actually a bad Joke at many tourism destinations with the rampant instructor violations of common sense....But hey, instructors and shops need to make money, right? Of course there needs to be collateral damage.....Livelihoods are on the line.

Did you send PADI those videos you promised of all the violations at BHB? What did they say?
 
Did you send PADI those videos you promised of all the violations at BHB? What did they say?
Like most of the rest of everyone here, I have been too busy doing what I like to do ( reef and wreck dives in fun places), rather than spend time doing what I ought to have been doing ( shooting videos that might cause a standard to be enforced, and might save a life some day)....
I have not dived the BHB since that post you mention...though my wife dives there almost every week, and I get horror stories from her and her friends there weekly.
Someone SHOULD be shooting VIDEOS of instructors and both good and bad classes at the BHB....this thread is one more reason I and some others, should spend some time with this.....
 
Let's see...things that without enforcement, could cause many people..including many children, to die each year.. How about something like No enforcement of DUI rules/standards...plenty of drunk drivers with no effective enforcement to prevent it......far more accidents and deaths of innocents.....And then there is PADI, that "certifies" more instructors than any other agency, and while it tells people they can't drive drunk, does nothing to actually prevent it....er...ahh, .....has "standards" that dive instructors should follow, but absolutely no interest in making sure the standards are followed---it is actually a bad Joke at many tourism destinations with the rampant instructor violations of common sense....But hey, instructors and shops need to make money, right? Of course there needs to be collateral damage.....Livelihoods are on the line.

Are you actually drawing a parallel between municipal/state enforcement of laws and a training agency's "enforcement" of standards? As was asked above, how do you suggest standards be policed?

Consider your drunk driving example. You do know that even though DWI is a huge problem with often-fatal consequences law enforcement actually does not do anything to "prevent" drunk driving, right? There is communication to dissuade doing so... and there are penalties for those who are caught doing so. But there is not a cop in every bar, restaurant, club, home, picnic area, liquor store, stadium or any other place where liquor might be consumed by people who might then drive. That's right, despite the serious nature of this issue, law enforcement is actually not doing anything proactive to "prevent" drunk driving.

Since there are laws against drunk driving in Florida, I suppose that if you were a victim of a drunk driver who had a BAC of .11 you would sue the DMV, your state, and the high-school where he took Drivers Ed? Obviously the DMV, for example is responsible here...

  • They issued that person their drivers license after he passed written and practical exams
  • As a condition of keeping that license the driver has agreed to abide by the laws regarding driving in the state, and that he will need to surrender that license should he not abide by those laws
  • Though they are, in fact, the sole "certifiers" of drivers in the state they failed to regularly monitor his driving performance closely to determine if was actually following all the laws
  • And obviously the laws put in place in the state are defective, since they did not prevent the other driver from driving drunk and hitting you. Clearly a BAC limit of .08 was not not stringent enough to prevent that drunk driver from injuring you... but a BAC of .06 probably would have.

But hey... bartenders and liquor stores gotta make money, right?
 
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Someone should call Willis and suggest they argue that unenforced Standards are NOT standards....

PADI should lose. Willis should win. And of course, the ratio should be 2 to one....

If Willis wins, the entire industry will be forced to become safer...To have "real" and enforced, standards.

I'm not sure even remotely how this makes sense. How about you call the instructor and demand he FOLLOW standards? Does individual responsibility have zero meaning?

Are you suggesting a new "industry standard" of enforcing standards? So far as we can tell - only PADI has a systemic Q&A program. So are you suggesting scuba police? Big brother will love that! Since only the PADI system uses a outreach Q&A - if say it's a good model for all other agencies to build upon. Is it perfect? No- but a solid start.

But, Courts aren't supposed to "make up" industry norms- they're their to evaluate an individual's compliance or non-compliance with them in determining fault in a "inherently hazardous activity" like scuba when a controversy occurs. But they are not watchdogs nor legislatures.

You say Willis should win...Why? Certainly Not on the merits of the instructors actions.

The only way Willis wins is if the Family and Doctors are found 100% liable between them. Not likely- in general in tort cases, but even less so in THIS fact pattern. Also remember The doctors aren't even a party - as it seems their motion for dismissal on jurisdictional grounds was granted.

I think Willis should have disclaimed coverage for the gross negligence of the instructor. In that respect they shouldn't be in the case. I'd agree there.

But even though it's not happening - because PADI is no longer at risk for liability-for the sake of muse: How will the change in DSD standards make the "scuba industry safer"?

Empirically PADI's DSD is the safest program per diver of any scuba program - you may not like the fact but unless you can produce a study to refute it - it's the only one which has done an analysis - and that's the way to objectively measure "safety"... Not the "just so stories" that are regurgitated here.

So to take us back to you post's central tenant- PADI can't lose- as they are now insulated from liability by their settlement.

However, The industry can still lose because one bad instructor, doing everything in his power to make matters worse at every turn, killed a child at a Boy Scout camp in Utah....

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 10:01 PM ----------

Let's see...things that without enforcement, could cause many people..including many children, to die each year.. How about something like No enforcement of DUI rules/standards...plenty of drunk drivers with no effective enforcement to prevent it......far more accidents and deaths of innocents.....And then there is PADI, that "certifies" more instructors than any other agency, and while it tells people they can't drive drunk, does nothing to actually prevent it....er...ahh, .....has "standards" that dive instructors should follow, but absolutely no interest in making sure the standards are followed---it is actually a bad Joke at many tourism destinations with the rampant instructor violations of common sense....But hey, instructors and shops need to make money, right? Of course there needs to be collateral damage.....Livelihoods are on the line.

Apples and Oranges. States regulate the privilege of driving, maintain the roads, etc. Thus they have a duty to enforce the laws that regulate such activity. Hence their mandate is self evident.

Scuba diving is a permissive hazardous sport. You chose to engage in a risky pass time activity (like skiing) because you enjoy the thrill - and realize you take a risk in doing so.

PADI at least performs systemic Q&A checks and objectively collects and published its data- does any other agency? I don't think so....

So if you think there is a broad based Q&A safety issue WHAT is your solution to it? Annual inspections? Undercover scuba ringers? Mandatory retraining on some set schedule?

BTW How much are we charging for that retraining and Q&A- I can hear it now, "PADI wants more money to retrain/recertify me- see it's all about the money...."

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 10:10 PM ----------


Like most of the rest of everyone here, I have been too busy doing what I like to do ( reef and wreck dives in fun places), rather than spend time doing what I ought to have been doing ( shooting videos that might cause a standard to be enforced, and might save a life some day)....
I have not dived the BHB since that post you mention...though my wife dives there almost every week, and I get horror stories from her and her friends there weekly.
Someone SHOULD be shooting VIDEOS of instructors and both good and bad classes at the BHB....this thread is one more reason I and some others, should spend some time with this.....

Respectfully YOU said you would do it AND would post it to prove YOUR point.... You said you would be able to do IT ANY TIME. The intervening MONTHS kinda prove either you weren't serious about it or haven't been able to prove your assertions...

You volunteered....

---------- Post added January 5th, 2015 at 10:16 PM ----------

Conconnan told me Utah is not Joint and Several, that each defendant will be assigned an amount based on their percentage of liability. If the instructor is found 30% liable, the parents 30%, and the Doctor 40% (except they have been dismissed) then the parents and Willis cough up 30% of the award. PADI has of course settled, and no further liability will attach.

Apparently in 1986 the legislature outlawed it but a case went up to their Supreme Court in 1998 and it was clarified in 1999 after the Courts muddied the water- so it constrains federal actions which must use local rules in cases like this.

Im a big fan of striking down joint and several liability - regrettably NY has an arcane system that permits it in the moneymaking auto accident field- trial Attorney lobby.

But one big reason PADI wants in for the trial is to defend its standards - so that a bad precedent doesn't result.
 
Are you actually drawing a parallel between municipal/state enforcement of laws and a training agency's "enforcement" of standards? As was asked above, how do you suggest standards be policed?

Consider you're drunk driver very driving example. You do know that even though DWI is a huge problem with often-fatal consequences llaw enforcement actually does not do anything to "prevent" drunk driving, right?
In Florida, on days when serious drinking might be expected....New Years Eve, after a big game...etc...there are often check points where cars are pulled over.....the serious drinkers are very afraid to be caught in one of these....and being caught drunk behind the wheel is very serious. It is a crime to drive while intoxicated, and there is enforcement.

Take another example......In NY State where I grew up, there was a Regents Exam for all high school students to show how well their teachers did at teaching the curriculum, as well as how well the kids learned, or how well they failed to learn the material up to senior year. I would argue that this was one reason why NY state high schools in the 70's, had higher level education than most Florida 2 year colleges....and that a NY kid going to a Florida college for freshman year, would be shocked at the pathetic level of math, science and writing skills common to kids that were educated in Florida. ...Florida being a state without any functional method of enforcing a given quality of education, teacher skill, or cumulative learning of students.....

So maybe what I am discussing is some form of testing AFTER OW certification....by an independent instructor...????
Something needs to catch all the bad instructors, and all the students passed without the requisite skills.
 
So maybe what I am discussing is some form of testing AFTER OW certification....by an independent instructor...????
Something needs to catch all the bad instructors, and all the students passed without the requisite skills.

Why don't the "independent instructors" just do the OW checkout dives in the first place? But then we'd need someone to verify that they did THEIR job properly... maybe a THIRD round of checkout dives? And btw, who would these "independent instructors" you recommend have been trained by?


---------- Post added January 6th, 2015 at 01:40 AM ----------

In Florida, on days when serious drinking might be expected....New Years Eve, after a big game...etc...there are often check points where cars are pulled over.....the serious drinkers are very afraid to be caught in one of these....and being caught drunk behind the wheel is very serious. It is a crime to drive while intoxicated, and there is enforcement.

.

Yeah... how's that been working out so far?

MADD - Florida

Drunk Driving In Florida: 2013 Statistics
Drunk driving fatalities: 697; 29% of all total traffic deaths, a 0.4% increase
Alcohol related crash injuries: 12,016
Alcohol related crashes: 17,199
DUI arrests: 53,664
DUI convictions: 28,689
DUI refusals: 18,268
Taxpayer subsidy of drunk driving fatalities: $3.6 billion
3 time offenders: 113,076
5 time offenders: 11,681

With 113k three-time DWI offenders in the state of Florida, I think we can safely say that fear of getting pulled over is NOT effectively keeping serious drinkers from drunk driving. Hell, forget the idea that making people "very afraid" of getting getting caught might serve as deterrent; it seems that ACTUALLY getting caught --- TWICE --- doesn't even seem to work particularly well.

Interestingly, while the population of Florida is only twice that of NJ... there were nearly 5X as many drunk driving fatalities in Florida as there were in NJ in 2013. (Our number was also DOWN 15% while Florida's rose.)

53,644 DWI arrests last year in Florida? That's 150 a day. And those are just the people that actually got caught. MADD estimates that nationally only about 1.3% of drunk driving instances result in an arrest. Using that number we can estimate that there are more than 4,000,000 instances of drunk driving each year in Florida.

One can only imagine how bad it would be down there if those Florida DWI checkpoints weren't doing such a bang-up job of deterring drunks from getting behind the wheel.

But I'm sure you're right... a similar type of deterrent/enforcement/punishment approach to keeping bad scuba divers and instructors out of the water will work just fine.
 
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After what passes for thought in some posts here, I'm thinking maybe I should quit diving, being a fish obviously causes brain damage.

just an observation...
 
Why don't the "independent instructors" just do the OW checkout dives in the first place? But then we'd need someone to verify that they did THEIR job properly... maybe a THIRD round of checkout dives? And btw, who would these "independent instructors" you recommend have been trained by?

---------- Post added January 6th, 2015 at 01:40 AM ----------



Yeah... how's that been working out so far?

MADD - Florida

Drunk Driving In Florida: 2013 Statistics
Drunk driving fatalities: 697; 29% of all total traffic deaths, a 0.4% increase
Alcohol related crash injuries: 12,016
Alcohol related crashes: 17,199
DUI arrests: 53,664
DUI convictions: 28,689
DUI refusals: 18,268
Taxpayer subsidy of drunk driving fatalities: $3.6 billion
3 time offenders: 113,076
5 time offenders: 11,681

With 113k three-time DWI offenders in the state of Florida, I think we can safely say that fear of getting pulled over is NOT effectively keeping serious drinkers from drunk driving. Hell, forget the idea that making people "very afraid" of getting getting caught might serve as deterrent; it seems that ACTUALLY getting caught --- TWICE --- doesn't even seem to work particularly well.

Interestingly, while the population of Florida is only twice that of NJ... there were nearly 5X as many drunk driving fatalities in Florida as there were in NJ in 2013. (Our number was also DOWN 15% while Florida's rose.)

53,644 DWI arrests last year in Florida? That's 150 a day. And those are just the people that actually got caught. MADD estimates that nationally only about 1.3% of drunk driving instances result in an arrest. Using that number we can estimate that there are more than 4,000,000 instances of drunk driving each year in Florida.

One can only imagine how bad it would be down there if those Florida DWI checkpoints weren't doing such a bang-up job of deterring drunks from getting behind the wheel.

But I'm sure you're right... a similar type of deterrent/enforcement/punishment approach to keeping bad scuba divers and instructors out of the water will work just fine.

Good work on covering the difficulty of dealing with an addictive drug and the abuse of which, we all know ruins many lives.
Fortunately, being a poor dive instructor is NOT addictive, and giving poor instruction is not inherently reinforcing to the instructor....I don't know that there is a close parallel to dive instruction....but i do know that Good dive instructors do not need any deterents....but at the same time, there a very large number of bad instructors, and the Dive Industry wants to think it can "police itself" without any police or deterrent....I see that as pretty messed up, as I'm sure parents that just lost a kid would too.
 

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