When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[stuartv]

Slightly off topic maybe - so it must be more than a manual and card - standards as well must play a role from the agency?

How much "freedom / leeway" are instructors allowed? Very little or quite a bit if you don't end up harming someone?

I think all the training agencies are accredited by the WRSTC.

WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council

Thus, they all teach you the same basic stuff, even though they may slice the material up into slightly different chunks (courses).

 

[Omisson]

I have been! This weekend is a 3 day weekend and my g/f is leaving on Saturday for a week of work out of town. I started thinking about a road trip to NC this weekend just to go diving - not even a class. But, I checked water temps and it looks like around 50 degrees. I think I would be okay in that with the gear I have - other than picking up a hooded vest this week. But, I decided it would be too much time and money invested to go do it just to find out that I was wrong and it was too cold and I couldn't do the dives I paid for. So, I think I'm just going to cool my jets and be patient. If I don't get it done sooner, I may try to set it up to do a Deep course when I'm in Hawaii in March.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 03:58 PM ----------



I know. I started my first company in 1999 and have worked for myself ever since.




I know. And my instructor is (or has been, so far) the same, either way. He's certified with both. But, getting the SDI manual and card was $50 less than doing the same course and getting the PADI manual and card. Like I said, I'm getting the same thing from SDI for less than getting it from PADI.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 04:06 PM ----------



Well, I certainly don't know what either agency charges the instructors. I just know that the shop I did OW with offers PADI and SDI and the OW course was $50 cheaper if I took an SDI card at the end.

Also, before I signed up with this particular shop, I looked at other shops and I looked at doing the eLearning course, then just going to a shop for a review and the pool and OW sessions. In all cases, PADI was more expensive than SDI and it seemed like the extra cost for PADI was even higher if the student elected to do the online course, instead of a normal classroom session for the course.

It's a minor thing, but I also like that SDI is setup where my shop can enter new certifications and then print me out my new C card on the spot, where, with PADI, they have to enter a new certification and then PADI prints and mails the C card to the student.

It seems like PADI just costs more for the same things. I have been told that PADI's Marketing budget is bigger than SDI's ENTIRE budget. If that's true, it would make sense that they would have to charge more for the same things, just to cover their extra overhead.

Anyway.... I definitely don't want to turn this into a PADI vs SDI thread. I just wanted to make the point that even though PADI may not directly set the price of a course, they clearly set it indirectly by virtue of how much they charge the instructor for the course materials. If PADI charges $50 more for the book and registration fees, then I would expect the course to cost $50 more. I certainly would NOT expect the instructor to eat that extra $50.

PADI Deep costs more BECAUSE you do 4 dives. SDI you only do 2. That's not a knock of SDI deep just a recognition of the TIME diving required.

Do you want to dive more or save money? I'd think 4 deep dives with an instructor is better than 2- but hey you obviously researched it before concluding it was 50 dollars more right?

 

[boulderjohn]

Slightly off topic maybe - so it must be more than a manual and card - standards as well must play a role from the agency?

How much "freedom / leeway" are instructors allowed? Very little or quite a bit if you don't end up harming someone?

It does depend to a certain extent upon the agency, but not as much as some people think.

The standards include requirements and limitations on what an instructor can do for reasons of safety. Those include things like maximum depths, no overhead environments, number of students, etc. The standards also include required concepts and skills that must be taught.

The instructor can add beyond that. Some agencies are quite up front with that. An instructor for NAUI, for example, can add additional requirements for students to complete. Some people believe PADI instructors cannot do that, but they are wrong. PADI instructors can add more learning to a course, both in concepts and in skills, and I do it in every course I teach. The difference is that in some agencies, like NAUI, the instructor can make those additional concepts or skills a requirement for completing the course. For PADI, and instructor can of course keep teaching those additional skills until the student is proficient, but the instructor cannot fail a student for not knowing or being able to do something that is not part of the standards.

When an instructor chooses to teach additional skills, there is an element of risk. If there is an accident while the instructor is teaching within standards, the instructor will almost certainly be safe in case of a lawsuit because it will be easy to prove that what was done was considered to be safe and acceptable practice. If the instructor is doing something additional, the burden will be on the instructor to prove that what was done was a safe and reasonable practice.

 

[stuartv]

PADI Deep costs more BECAUSE you do 4 dives. SDI you only do 2. That's not a knock of SDI deep just a recognition of the TIME diving required.

Do you want to dive more or save money? I'd think 4 deep dives with an instructor is better than 2- but hey you obviously researched it before concluding it was 50 dollars more right?

The $50 more thing was for the Open Water course. But, hey you obviously read my post completely before responding, so I must not have made that clear. My apologies. I didn't say anything about the relative costs of the Deep course. What I DID say about Deep is that I will most likely take Deep the first chance I get, whether it's PADI or SDI - as long as I'm satisfied with who the instructor will be. I have already identified one specific instructor at the shop I've been going through that I will not take any further classes with. He's a nice guy, I guess, but I have not found his instruction to be satisfactory. The point being, I DO have more criteria than just cost or convenience.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The standards do require two dives. My students do 4 for the SDI Deep cert. I agree that 2 dives is not sufficient for a student to really appreciate what deep diving involves. My deep course is 425.00 and is limited to two students. Private class is 125.00 more. There is extra planning and additional logistics to putting on a deep course for me. Due to my location we need to travel about 4 1/2 hours which I do several times a year for this and Advanced Level and Tech courses. That involves lodging, meals, gas fills, etc. As a result if I'm going to do that we are not going to do it for two dives. And I try not to combine courses. If I'm doing a Deep or Advanced Level class which is 6 dives I'm not going to also have Underwater Nav students doing that class.

 

[Pinecube]

Scuba police or not, I'd be checking the wording of my insurance policy before exceeding PADI's 60' limit.

 

[tursiops]

I think all the training agencies are accredited by the WRSTC.

WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council

Thus, they all teach you the same basic stuff, even though they may slice the material up into slightly different chunks (courses).

No, NAUI and GUE and UTD are not part of the RSTC....and all the various classes of the members are not part of the agreed minimum standards.

 

[Bob DBF]

I think all the training agencies are accredited by the WRSTC.

WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council

Thus, they all teach you the same basic stuff, even though they may slice the material up into slightly different chunks (courses).

Basically they have 10 agencies unless you want to count an agency more than once for being overseas, that would be 21.

There are over 150 Agencies worldwide, I quit counting. List of diver certification organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Make of that what you will.



Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[AdivingBel]

Not sure why you are choosing Deep Specialty over AOW (or equivalent whichever agency). I can dive. I learned to dive through OW training followed by DIVING. I choose my certs based upon what is required by the OPs in order to do the dives I want to do. If I could get to the dives I want to do via my own boat, I would probably have fewer certs, but that's not the case for vacation diving. I understand they need assurances (as best as certs can prove) that I can do the dives I request. That's the reality of needing to rely on them to get me where I need to go. That said, I choose my TRAINING based on the types of dives I would like to do. NOT necessarily the same thing. I'm all about additional training if needed to do the types of diving I want to do SAFELY (wife is my dive buddy). If you want to do advanced dives while on vacation in FL or the Caribbean, the OPs want to see an AOW or equivalent card from an established agency (pick one there are several). Without it you may be able to show your Deep Specialty (since proof of going deep is generally what they want) along with some discussion or your log book along with some discussion or you may get the B team behind the dive shop counter that gives you the "deer in headlights stare" and leave you on the dock. Not fair, but it can be the reality. I prefer not to have to worry about it. I want hassle free diving as much as possible and choose not to buck the system. You're gonna do what you're gonna do, but don't do yourself a disservice if you're looking to vacation dive for FUN. FUN is what it's supposed to be about on vacation. Not hassle. If you want AOW to be centered on deep diving tell your instructor. You can do deep dive, wreck dive (deep), nav (maybe not deep, but multilevel), p-p buoyancy (multilevel), or even boat dive (deep, if you really just want to go deep). Happy diving.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Scuba police or not, I'd be checking the wording of my insurance policy before exceeding PADI's 60' limit.

Thank goodness for DAN USA. I have no idea what people who dive really deep do without that kind of 'we don't care what cards you hold, you're covered' dive insurance...it's not like there's a 200m+ CCR ticket you can show the insurance drone.