Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[GDI]

Seriously? Have you looked at cavern requirements? Do you think a typical AOW diver can come into a cavern class and learn for the first time how to do a frog kick, modified frog kick, modified flutter kick, helicopter turn, and really solid buoyancy and trim in addition to learning all the cave-related skills that comprise 90% of the requirements in the typical time allotted to a cavern course?

Actually it's an instructor thing because "IF"​ these sort of skills are taught at the start during OW then yes they could, don't you think.. This is not the norm mind you but it is possible. I teach these in OW classes but then I am jilted . Each course should be able to build on the previous whilst maintaining those lessons learnt from the previous. I should not have to be teaching basics of buoyancy or trim on a cavern class but I do non the less. It is not unusual for me to take extra time at the cavern level to get the student through these FUNDAMENTALS. Don't forget beside these skills and all the reel work, OOA shares etc. The student often is learning new equipment and its configuration. The time must be taken/ hence cavern seldom takes only the 4 dive minimum. Its a good thing the Ginnie Ballroom is all rock and plenty of play space just outside of it

---------- Post added March 27th, 2015 at 06:49 PM ----------

Whether any individual student is prepared coming IN to a cavern class is a different question. Based on what Jim posted above, however, it looks like students should come OUT of a cavern with those skills. The language clearly says "the course develops..." rather than "the course anticipates that you will show up ready to be handed your card..."

Of course I'm not being naive here. It would be impossible for an instructor to take a "typical AOW diver" and have them sorted out over a two-day cavern course. But should a "typical open water diver" even be signing up for a cavern class? Sure, it's hard for an instructor in central Florida to vet the skills of someone who's scheduling a class via e-mail from 1,000 miles away. But maybe this goes back to an earlier part of this thread; isn't it incumbent upon them to communicate not just the "prerequisites" for the course but also the "expectations" that an instructor would have of a diver enrolling in a cavern class?

And, if there are certain expectations of student enrolling in a course, perhaps those expectations should be included in the agency's description of the course? If not, we can hardly fault the "typical diver" who shows up with a deficit in the very skills that it seems the course is intended to develop. In their minds they're coming to the course to LEARN those things, not to demonstrate proficiency right off the bat.

Yes it is, lay it on the line and tell them what the expectations are

 

[boulderjohn]

Actually it's an instructor thing because "IF"​ these sort of skills are taught at the start during OW then yes they could, don't you think.. This is not the norm mind but it is possible. I teach these in OW classes but then I am jilted

Oh, I fully agree. I have taught OW students in horizontal trim and neutrally buoyant for many years, and it makes a huge difference. I have a current example of what a difference it can be.

Last October I was asked to do AOW dives for someone who was then still completing his OW dives. I recommended against it, but we did it anyway. He was enthusiastic about the trim and buoyancy I was teaching and the gear I was wearing. He has been going like mad with scuba ever since. Yesterday I worked with him in a pool session. About 5 months after taking OW, he is early in the TDI Intro to Tech-Advanced Nitrox-Deco Procedures sequence. He was in doubles and a dry suit. He held horizontal trim in place without moving. He has all the kicks, including the back kick. He went back and forth between a deco bottle and back gas several times while holding position. We did three simulated deco stops from 11 feet several times. He wants to take cave next fall. He'll do fine.

Was he ready with a grand total of 9 dives immediately after AOW? I don't think so, but he was a heck of a lot better than a lot of divers I see with a heck of a lot more dives.

 

[Pavao]

The primary basic is just a wrap of a minimum three wraps times. This is used when and where the primary tie-off only allows for a single wrapped line, It can put stress on cave structure if over tight and too much movement occurs. Rated as good and acceptable but not best method.

The primary with Tension Spring (TS) is used when it is possible to better secure the primary wrap and having access to the end of the secure point is ideal. This is accomplished by knowing how to tie a 1/2 clove hitch. Once the wrap of three is wound you simply twist the line creating a loop and place it back over the tie point in the opposite direction.

The action of pulling on such a line puts stress on the line and not the cave structure. Note: Never stress the line to much, just enough to keep things tight and clean. Always think TLC (tension, lock and clip)

I think I demo this better then I might be explaining it, does this help?

Well, see? I was in fact taught it that way, which makes sense, every thing I know is very consistent with all the other exemples you gave, why would this one be different? It wasn't, I just brain farted and wasn't recognizing it, but after doing a dry run here with just the cord of my iPhone it quickly got back to me.

Thanks for explaining it.

Btw, my card is TDI, but the instructor is also both NSS-CDS and NACD instructor, maybe not both, but I know he is at least one of the two, not sure, anyways, it's good to see the consistence of what he taught me and what you teach.
Please continue the hard and good work to sort out the bad apples, we will all be grateful for it!

Thank you
Pavao

 

[boulderjohn]

I agree. Look at the syllabus of cavern. It's supposed to cover trim and propulsion techniques.

Sure it is. It is supposed to teach people to have good horizontal trim, all the non-silting kicks, plus all the cavern skills, and it is supposed to do it in how long?

 

[Superlyte27]

In cavern class, or cave class, my job is to teach you to cavern dive or cave dive NOT to teach you how to scuba dive. You should know how to do that before you get here.

My cavern class is 3 days long. I can't possibly teach you how to master buoyancy in 3 days. So, if you want to pass my class, you should probably have buoyancy down before you get here.

Most students however can master their trim and kicks within 3 days. Actually, I've only had 3 people who couldn't master a frog kick in 3 days.

 

[kensuf]

Glad to see I'm not the only guy that needs 3 days to teach cavern.

 

[AQUAALEX]

In my experience this is not just Cave Diving, but also Technical Diving. More and more people see technical and cave diving as just another certification.

And even if the agencies and/or instructor was inept one would expect someone getting into these kinds of dives to be able to read and do research and dive/train with various instructors/agencies to learn and expand their knowledge.

The requirements to become a technical diver, an instructor and a cave diver is just not good enough in my opinion.

 

[GDI]

Most agencies require only a minimum of 4 dives over two days. This assuming a cavern student or technical diving student (yes there are concerns here as well) have been previously correctly trained or at least practiced the required skills. We have identified that this is often not the case thus a cavern course becomes a basic fundamentals program. When this occurs the course if often 3-4 days and usually taking 6 or more dives.

Should this become the norm? Should the cave training agencies assume that a cavern course should have a minimum of 6 dives of a three (3) day minimum?


On a personal note I feel such skills need to be introduced into the basic OW programs. Buoyancy, Trim, Helicopter turns, Reverse kicks. If the instructor demonstrates these a student will try to imitate. Sadly though many OWSI themselves cannot do these skills with any sort of proficiency or suitable as need for cave/ern diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

Most agencies require only a minimum of 4 dives over two days. This assuming a cavern student or technical diving student (yes there are concerns here as well) have been previously correctly trained or at least practiced the required skills. We have identified that this is often not the case thus a cavern course becomes a basic fundamentals program. When this occurs the course if often 3-4 days and usually taking 6 or more dives.

Should this become the norm? Should the cave training agencies assume that a cavern course should have a minimum of 6 dives of a three (3) day minimum?

If it is the norm, then someone who comes to the class with those basic skills nailed is penalized by having to take an overly long and more expensive course. It will not have to be the norm if you explain up front that the two day course assumes you will be able to do a reasonable job with certain skills when you take the class. If you cannot, you can expect to have to take more time or maybe take a skills course before that.

Several of us teach a PADI distinctive specialty called Tecreational Diving that teaches those skills. I don't know of any other recreational course that teaches them. As for OWSI instructors not being able to do those skills, I can say without embarrassment that I could not do them when I was a new OWSI, and neither could most of the other instructors where I worked. We had in fact never seen them.

 

[victorzamora]

Should the cave training agencies assume that a cavern course should have a minimum of 6 dives of a three (3) day minimum?

Unfortunately, it won't fix things. I mean, let's pretend that we can get every agency with a Cavern Diver class to require 6 dives over 3 days minimum. There are still going to be people breaking standards, lying about how many dives they did, cramming 6 dives into one day, and generally holding students to low standards. I mean, six dives of bad instruction still doesn't produce good divers.

You want proof of instructors still violating rules? I have PLENTY. NAUI Instructor doing Cave1 and Cave2 back-to-back (despite the 25-dive minimum)....PADI Tec instructors doing ALL of the dives in one day....students flutter kicking exclusively in Cave training and still passing....getting pegged to ceilings and needing rescue and still passing. And you have these instructors in YOUR AGENCY.

It's like saying "to make pot go away, let's make it more illegal." It's not going to do anything until you hold the instructors more accountable. If you keep cheap, easy training readily available you'll continue having students either seeking out "easy" (read: crappy) instructors or being unfortunate enough to end up with one.