Religion and scuba

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I don't know the reference for that. Are you talking about times when the Hebrews warred & basically exterminated enemy, or what?
Here's an exhaustive list of references. Enjoy.

That's a serious question I don't have the specifics for. If a woman near term has a partial birth abortion, fine & dandy, but just a few weeks later it traverses the vagina & she tosses it in a dumpster, she's a murderer. That seems strange to me. Does passage through the vaginal convey status as a human being?
Another straw-man. I don't know how a reasonable person could decide that the moment of birth marks the transition from non-human to human. I'm not denying that this is what some people think, but it's a stance that is as unreasonable as saying that life begins at conception. It has no basis in reality.

The correct way to figure this out is to ask, at which point does a human fetus start to be capable of experiencing pain or suffering? I don't have an answer and I don't think anybody does. But that doesn't mean that we will never know. It's probably a gradual process, which makes it even harder to draw a solid line, but as of yet, the best we can do is make an educated guess and perhaps try to err on the safe side.

One thing is for sure though. A human blastocyst, which is what's being used in stem cell research, is in absolutely no way equipped to experience pain, suffering or end of life in any way. Every time you swat a mosquito, you kill an animal with hundreds of thousands of nerve cells, but a human blastocyst has nothing of that sort. Yet, people generally have no second thoughts when swatting a mosquito, but some people feel horrified at the thought of using human blastocysts for stem cell research (or aborting one). An understandable feeling, but an irrational one, as evidence tells us that every time we scratch our nose, we kill more human cells than when destroying a blastocyst. This is one thing that we do have solid evidence for.

Yet, religious dogma is unmovable on the stance that human life begins at conception and thus is sacred and must be protected. This has hindered stem cell research considerably in the past, despite the prospect of overwhelming medical advances that stem cell techniques can bring and the ability to cure currently untreatable conditions and alleviate human suffering on a large scale.

TI get it just fine. In physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc..., there's an objective truth to get. Regardless of what people or groups think or feel about it, what the consensus is, etc... There's an underlying truth apart from our perception of & policy regarding it.

That's not true of human-devised 'moral' truth. From a strictly secular perspective. You've explained the basis for secular morality in a previous post rather well, but it's a belief system/value system that's a social construct, a matter of belief/attitude/opinion/faith, ...
Again, you almost had it right until that last part. There is a moral truth to get, just like there's a truth in physics to get. We just don't know all the details yet, just as we don't know all the details of physics yet, and perhaps we never will. It's a process of development, learning more about ourselves and the universe. Modern societies are morally more developed as ancient societies, because we know more of the moral truth than they did back in the day. Just as we know more about physics today than we did in the past. Same is true between different societies of today's world.

And in the same way, some areas of physics are currently very open to debate with a lot of disagreement between physicists. In the same way, some areas of morality are very open to debate. But that still doesn't mean that there isn't a moral (or physical) truth still to be found. Disagreement, or opinions if you will, are a result of a lack of evidence. Discover more evidence and the disagreement between physicist will disappear, as will the different opinions on morality.

TAs for divine moral truth changing over time, I don't think that's quite the way of it. God's relationship with humanity is just that; relational. God didn't change, but we did, and our relationship to Him changed over time. The relationship of the early Hebrews taught us in a way that set the stage for better understanding the need for Christ's atoning sacrifice, the value of grace. Yes, you will see differences in how things were handled under the Old vs. New Covenants, at different times in history. And the Bible does not guarantee fairness as we understand it. As humans, we tend to think in terms of how someone relates to us in our single lifetimes. God has dealt with our species; if it takes thousands of years for Him to unfold some aspects of our relationship, that is no great surprise. Under Moses we were taught the 10 Commandments. Under Jesus, love thy neighbor as thyself. God revelations to us didn't all happen at once.
So it's not divine morality that changes over time, but humanity's understanding of that morality. OK. But how is that in any way better than secular morality, which also leads to a changing understanding of morality? If ancient Israel's understanding of divine morality was that it's OK to own slaves and have multiple wives, but today's understanding is that these things are not OK, how is that not a matter of opinion? If "thou shalt not murder" can be interpreted as "Jews shalt not kill other Jews," who is to say that this is not the right interpretation? After all, there are no further explanations and the bible (or Torah) contains many instances of Jews killing non-Jews in the most vile ways with no indication that there's anything wrong with that. How would you go about determining that this is the wrong interpretation?

This is why secular morality is vastly superior than any moral code based on written rules. Secular morality doesn't just give a list of Dos and Don'ts and then leaves it up to the reader to try to interpret them and make sense of them, but instead it provides explanations as to why some things are good and others are bad, and then the moral code is derived from that. Which necessarily leads to the moral code adapting and changing over time. New evidence can change the conclusions derived from the explanations, and this is a good thing as it allows us to develop into better human beings.

---------- Post added July 22nd, 2015 at 09:31 AM ----------

Ah. I was thinking in terms of what the Hebrews did under instruction, not what God did directly. Sad fact of life is, there are civilian casualties. Hiroshima comes to mind. This situation is one where I think in terms of the sovereignty of God; His knowledge and authority are vastly above any human. Put simply, He can do what He deems best. If you try to take it upon yourself to judge God, let alone as if He were a human ruler, there will be problems.
Rationalizing terrorism through infanticide as collateral damage :facepalm: And that's not even mentioning that Hiroshima also was an absolutely heinous act.
 
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Modern U.S. society is very multi-cultural, and sadly not dedicated to God. Many people serve themselves first & foremost. This society is far more lax on the issue of sexual immorality. Our marriage success rate is pretty bad. Lots of kids from broken homes.
Which has exactly zero, zilch, nada to do with religiosity. Just as for acceptance of non-believers and gays, the most secular countries in the developed world (Northern European, more or less all of them) score better on those scales than the USA - which isn't particularly low on the religiosity scale - does.




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Typos are a feature, not a bug
 
I agree that labeling yourself religious doesn't necessarily equate a low divorce rate. That's not the angle I was working. I was responding to NWGrateful Diver's post on how modern society might regard a very strong prohibition against fornication, basically. I suspect a society with very strong conservative views (for whatever reason, religious or not) on what I referred to as sexual immorality would tend to have lower divorce rates than a 'free love' society very tolerant of fornication (and likely adultery). My intended point was that there may be adverse consequences to a strongly sexually liberal society. Not that calling yourself religious secures your marriage. And I'm not calling for putting all the women in burkas, either. How people believe society should respond to such concerns would be another long, multi-page thread.

Richard.

I think statistically you'd be surprised ... if you look at the 10 states in the USA with the highest divorce rates, at least half of them are strongly conservative, with quite high percentages of population claiming to be not just religious, but tending toward the evangelical ...

1. Nevada
2. Maine
3. Oklahoma
4. Oregon
5. Arkansas
6. West Virginia
7. Florida
8. Kentucky
9. New Mexico
10. Tennessee

If your theory were correct, I'd expect to see states like California, Illinois and New York on that list ... instead of states like Tennessee, Kentucky and Arkansas.

There are 37 million subscribers to the Ashley Madison website ... and I can assure you they are not all "liberals". It wouldn't surprise me to find that a significant percentage of them are people who profess a strong belief in God ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I think statistically you'd be surprised ... if you look at the 10 states in the USA with the highest divorce rates, at least half of them are strongly conservative, with quite high percentages of population claiming to be not just religious, but tending toward the evangelical ...

1. Nevada
2. Maine
3. Oklahoma
4. Oregon
5. Arkansas
6. West Virginia
7. Florida
8. Kentucky
9. New Mexico
10. Tennessee

If your theory were correct, I'd expect to see states like California, Illinois and New York on that list ... instead of states like Tennessee, Kentucky and Arkansas.

There are 37 million subscribers to the Ashley Madison website ... and I can assure you they are not all "liberals". It wouldn't surprise me to find that a significant percentage of them are people who profess a strong belief in God ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Might be because they don't get married at all in the more liberal states. No marraige, no divorce.
 
Might be because they don't get married at all in the more liberal states. No marraige, no divorce.

... wherever did you get that idea from? Got any data to back it up?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Might be because they don't get married at all in the more liberal states. No marraige, no divorce.

Not supported by the data. More liberal states do show first marriage at a later age, and subsequent lower divorce rates.
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I'm the first to point out correlation does not equal causation, BUT if your social objective is the reduction in the divorce rate it would appear "wait for sex until you're married" looks like the 'war on drugs' Epic fail
 
if your social objective is the reduction in the divorce rate it would appear "wait for sex until you're married" looks like the 'war on drugs' Epic fail

My personal impression (not supported by statistically significant data) is:

Religious person's view on sex: it's bad unless you're married. If you're married, it's not as bad and can be tolerated.
Non-religious (but secularly moral) person's view on sex: it's great! But be sure that it's what you really want to do, and if you're in a committed, monomagous relationship you should respect your partner and only have sex with him/her.


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Typos are a feature, not a bug
 
My personal impression (not supported by statistically significant data) is:

Religious person's view on sex: it's bad unless you're married. If you're married, it's not as bad and can be tolerated.
Make sure you don't put your penis in the wrong hole though! And don't use contraceptives. If you don't want to risk pregnancy, be abstinent. Because we can't have abortions either. If the man doesn't want sex, that's OK, but if the woman doesn't want sex, then she must be submissive.
 
Make sure you don't put your penis in the wrong hole though!
Uh-huh?

[video=youtube;cG-6AP8DIOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-6AP8DIOU[/video]

[video=youtube;j8ZF_R_j0OY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ZF_R_j0OY[/video]
 
Ah. I was thinking in terms of what the Hebrews did under instruction, not what God did directly.

You mean the biblical genocides or the historical genocides? Either way, with or without God's help, the historical Jews were a nasty bunch of thugs.

R..
 

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