Is overweighting of OW students a violation of standards?

[James R]

Goodness, I never thought of having them expel right to 500. I do it with just whatever air they had left. Thanks for that one...it's in the "toolbox" now.

You're welcome! Let me know how it goes for you. I have found that it's really helpful.

 

[Hawkwood]

It's stupid obvious. They have to change out anyway, so why not take full advantage of that.

 

[James R]

Yeah, exactly. Plus I joke (since humor is often based in truth) that it'll make the tanks lighter for them to carry back to the parking lot.

Though I see (mainly when it's warm) many instructors doing floating surface intervals and not changing tanks, which actually is a standards violation!

 

[archer1960]

I am a PADI instructor. I do not, ever, intentionally overweight anyone! I can tell by how puffed up someone's BCD is if (s)he has too much weight, among other ways. I do not do have my classes do skills kneeling on platform, so too much weight makes everything more difficult, not easier.

At the end of Open Water dive 1, I have them all dump their tank to 500 and do another weight check. While this isn't a requirement, I find that it makes dives 2-4 easier for the students. By the time they've spent 40+ min on dive 1 their comfort level is usually a lot higher, so a normal breath may be a real normal breath not a "as much as my lungs can possibly hold" breath.

When I took my OW last year, we didn't do this (though it probably would have helped a bit), but my instructor was pretty good at estimating how much weight was needed. I think he had me about 4-5lb over-weighted, at 16 lb in a full (rented) 3mm wetsuit. When I went to Coz later in the year, I did my own wieght checks at the end of the first two days of diving, and ended up at 12lb with a brand new 3mm wetsuit. I was able to sit at my safety stop with no air in the BC (or at least so little that I couldn't get any more out), and control my depth with just my breath. Of course, that increases the cognitive load at the safety stop, because if I don't pay attention and go up too much, I have to swim back down...

 

[rprovost76]

I am a very new diver--15 logged dives to date--and I too was grossly over-weighted by my instructor both in the pool and in the lake for my OW dives. I didn't fully realize the extent to which I was over-weighted until my first boat dive off Maui. I was unsure of my weight and asked the DMs advice--it was my first salt water dive, and my first dive in a 5mm full suit--and he happened to put the perfect amount of lead in my belt. I had a hard time getting down at first, but I used the anchor line and made it to depth, and from there I was able to dive with a nearly empty BC; I only added a small amount of air once after passing 60 feet. I had no trouble maintaining depth at my safety stop.

This experience was a revelation to me, though I didn't fully comprehend it until after the dive. My trim and buoyancy were spot on, and the dive in general was far more pleasurable.

Later that week, we booked another dive with a different outfit. At the beginning, when listing our desired weight, I stated that I was unsure since it was my first time in a 3mm shorty, that my requested amount was potentially too much. The captain of the dive boat shrugged this off and said, "Well you can always add air," like my concern was trivial. Proper weighting clearly took a backseat to getting me on the bottom. This was a large dive operation that, I suspect, caters chiefly to inexperienced and/or infrequent divers on holiday; it is doubtless easier to throw on lead than to expect good buoyancy skills.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

This was a large dive operation that, I suspect, caters chiefly to inexperienced and/or infrequent divers on holiday; it is doubtless easier to throw on lead than to expect good buoyancy skills.

I am in no way endorsing this - however is it a bigger pain in the tush to get back on the boat and add more weight or drop weight on your next dive? All I am saying is to be a few pounds over should not impede you from reaching the surface after a dive. If you want to nail your weight check - do a shore dive first. Boats are on a schedule and the captain is trying to keep to the schedule - cattle boat or not...

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

When I took my OW last year, we didn't do this (though it probably would have helped a bit), but my instructor was pretty good at estimating how much weight was needed. I think he had me about 4-5lb over-weighted, at 16 lb in a full (rented) 3mm wetsuit. When I went to Coz later in the year, I did my own wieght checks at the end of the first two days of diving, and ended up at 12lb with a brand new 3mm wetsuit. I was able to sit at my safety stop with no air in the BC (or at least so little that I couldn't get any more out), and control my depth with just my breath. Of course, that increases the cognitive load at the safety stop, because if I don't pay attention and go up too much, I have to swim back down...

The cognitive load is something that is always there to some degree at a 15' stop. With no air in a secondary bag (BC) besides your permanently installed and very delicate one I might add (your lungs), it makes it actually quite a bit easier to manage a stop. If your trying to manage depth with breath control AND also manage the expansion and contraction of air in your BC it can get really tiring and stressful for some people to try and breathe and constantly dump and inflate trying to hold a stop. Add ocean swells on top if this and it's like trying to stand on a beach ball. Fifteen feet deep is where the most changes in pressure happen, right in the middle of the first ATM (or second if you include the surface). This is also where any extra uneeded gas will expand and squeeze the most.
So if you are using the 15' empty BC rule and notice you are rising up to 12 or 10 feet and have to flip over and fin back down to 15 then that's not bad, it easy to correct. If I see myself creeping up I exhale deeply and allow myself to sink back down to 15 then resume normal breaths. You may consider adding a pound or two if you want if you seem just a little too light (that's part of the dial-in), but it's sure better than being 10 lbs or more overweight and having to ride the inflator the whole time.
The biggest and most important thing to me (and I'm not talking about a pound or two of trivial weight), is to be able to float on the surface even in the event of a total BC failure.
BTW, the 15 foot empty BC rule is also a good way to know when your wetsuit is starting to crush down and wear out. As soon as you start needing to shed weight to keep the rule and nothing else like body composition has changed, you can bet it's your suit.

 

[Frosty]

Though I see (mainly when it's warm) many instructors doing floating surface intervals and not changing tanks, which actually is a standards violation!

How is it a standards violation? (padi I assume) -NO hook in that question I genuinely want to know. Is it the floating part or the not changing tanks part?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The cognitive load is something that is always there to some degree at a 15' stop. With no air in a secondary bag (BC) besides your permanently installed and very delicate one I might add (your lungs), it makes it actually quite a bit easier to manage a stop. If your trying to manage depth with breath control AND also manage the expansion and contraction of air in your BC it can get really tiring and stressful for some people to try and breathe and constantly dump and inflate trying to hold a stop. Add ocean swells on top if this and it's like trying to stand on a beach ball. Fifteen feet deep is where the most changes in pressure happen, right in the middle of the first ATM (or second if you include the surface). This is also where any extra uneeded gas will expand and squeeze the most.
So if you are using the 15' empty BC rule and notice you are rising up to 12 or 10 feet and have to flip over and fin back down to 15 then that's not bad, it easy to correct. If I see myself creeping up I exhale deeply and allow myself to sink back down to 15 then resume normal breaths. You may consider adding a pound or two if you want if you seem just a little too light (that's part of the dial-in), but it's sure better than being 10 lbs or more overweight and having to ride the inflator the whole time.
The biggest and most important thing to me (and I'm not talking about a pound or two of trivial weight), is to be able to float on the surface even in the event of a total BC failure.
BTW, the 15 foot empty BC rule is also a good way to know when your wetsuit is starting to crush down and wear out. As soon as you start needing to shed weight to keep the rule and nothing else like body composition has changed, you can bet it's your suit.

I disagree. What if the diver is trying to do a stop with less than 500 psi and a boat comes over with propellers turning? They may well float uncontrollably to the surface. I prefer to keep a little air in the BC. If the diver is wearing a thick wetsuit and is neutral at 15 feet.. they are going to be quite buoyant at 5 ft. The ascent from 5 feet should be slow, NOT floating up.

Another reason to have some extra lead is deployment of an smb on a reel or spool. It will take 2-4 lbs of downward force on the string to make the float stick up and be functional.. maybe even more force. So who wants to be trying to swim down and not inhale too much as they struggle to stay submerged and hold the float down? What do you think this would do to a diver's comfort level and exertion level and enjoyment of the dive. They are much, much more likely to say "screw it" and float to the surface and skip or abbreviate their safety stop. If they have accidentally gone into deco, this could have more serious consequences.

It is not a contest who can use the least amount of lead. I guess?? because FAT people need lots of lead and thin, fit people need considerably less, this tends to make people think that you are a better diver if you use less lead? It is a ridiculous fallacy.

It is always better to be too heavy, rather than too light and the BC perfoms marvelously to compensate for a few extra lbs of lead. The additional bubble of air is more to manage, but unless you do the whole dive in very shallow water, this is really not much of an issue for a somewhat skilled diver.

As for being able to float on the surface with a failed BC?... that is a completely ridiculous reason to try to minimize your lead. The correct response to a failed BC and simultaneously running out of air and also not having a snorkel to allow the diver to rest comfortably on the surface with the head submerged... is to ditch some lead - NOT carry too little.

 

[Frosty]

I am a very new diver--15 logged dives to date--and I too was grossly over-weighted by my instructor both in the pool and in the lake for my OW dives. I didn't fully realize the extent to which I was over-weighted until my first boat dive off Maui. I was unsure of my weight and asked the DMs advice--it was my first salt water dive, and my first dive in a 5mm full suit--and he happened to put the perfect amount of lead in my belt. I had a hard time getting down at first, but I used the anchor line and made it to depth, and from there I was able to dive with a nearly empty BC; I only added a small amount of air once after passing 60 feet. I had no trouble maintaining depth at my safety stop.

This experience was a revelation to me, though I didn't fully comprehend it until after the dive. My trim and buoyancy were spot on, and the dive in general was far more pleasurable.

Later that week, we booked another dive with a different outfit. At the beginning, when listing our desired weight, I stated that I was unsure since it was my first time in a 3mm shorty, that my requested amount was potentially too much. The captain of the dive boat shrugged this off and said, "Well you can always add air," like my concern was trivial. Proper weighting clearly took a backseat to getting me on the bottom. This was a large dive operation that, I suspect, caters chiefly to inexperienced and/or infrequent divers on holiday; it is doubtless easier to throw on lead than to expect good buoyancy skills.

Im interested to know.
What do you weigh?
What suit were you in whist in the lake? What weight were you carrying?
What weight were you carrying wearing the 5.0mm suit ?
What weight di you settle on with the 3.0mm shorty?