Is overweighting of OW students a violation of standards?

[Eric Sedletzky]

And they probably won't have to take a PPB class later which saves them time and money. Also, a PPB class doesn't necessarily mean they will be properly weighted either.
So what you're doing is a win win.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I would be disappointed in myself, if they needed to take a PPB class after my open water class.
My hope is to train divers that won't require such a class.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I would be disappointed in myself, if they needed to take a PPB class after my open water class.
My hope is to train divers that won't require such a class.

To me proper weighting and bouyancy skills are right up there with "never hold your breath" in importance. I don't know how it got pushed aside so badly and figured it could be made up later. i think it's pretty mission critical from the get go.
I guess with a climate of trying to shorten classes to not intrude too much on precious vacation time, plus the desire to make more capital with extended classes they figured buoyancy skills and weighting weren't important enough to really worry about in OW.
I Think they have it ass backwards.

 

[Ayisha]

...I do weight a pound or two over in case I need to breathe the tank dry or want maintain a depth less than 15'. There is more than one right way, however know what neutral is before adding more weight, and have a reason for the addition...

Good advice. Some agencies recommend checking weighting with a nearly empty tank holding a stop at 10 feet rather than at 15 feet. This actually gives you the extra pound or two over your result at 15 feet.

 

[Bob DBF]

Good advice. Some agencies recommend checking weighting with a nearly empty tank holding a stop at 10 feet rather than at 15 feet. This actually gives you the extra pound or two over your result at 15 feet.

Probably because there is a decompression stop at 10', the safety stop splits the last two decompression stops being easier to hold than 10' and more offgassing than 20'.


Bob

 

[george_austin]

The class shouldn't move forward until everyone is on board with proper weighting - that's my personal thought on that matter. I was certified in 1972 and you, number one, didn't have a buoyancy compensating device, certainly didn't need one in a swimming pool with a hard pack and a steel 72 in swimwear. When we moved on to the OW Skin Diving day, or snorkeling as people call it now, that was the day you figured out your weighting with the instructors guidance. Yes, you were in whatever wetsuit you planned on using for your first scuba OW training dive. As I remember it, most people used around 8 or ten pounds of weight. I don't remember anyone having any issues but then again these students were very fit "old folks" most in their 20's or early 30's - a few Marines from Camp Pendleton too.

I remember being very unsure if I was going to wash out of scuba training - I was a great swimmer and thought I could keep up but the other students were like ducks in the water.

---------- Post added August 5th, 2015 at 12:11 PM ----------

I disagree. What if the diver is trying to do a stop with less than 500 psi and a boat comes over with propellers turning? They may well float uncontrollably to the surface. I prefer to keep a little air in the BC. If the diver is wearing a thick wetsuit and is neutral at 15 feet.. they are going to be quite buoyant at 5 ft. The ascent from 5 feet should be slow, NOT floating up.

Another reason to have some extra lead is deployment of an smb on a reel or spool. It will take 2-4 lbs of downward force on the string to make the float stick up and be functional.. maybe even more force. So who wants to be trying to swim down and not inhale too much as they struggle to stay submerged and hold the float down? What do you think this would do to a diver's comfort level and exertion level and enjoyment of the dive. They are much, much more likely to say "screw it" and float to the surface and skip or abbreviate their safety stop. If they have accidentally gone into deco, this could have more serious consequences.

It is not a contest who can use the least amount of lead. I guess?? because FAT people need lots of lead and thin, fit people need considerably less, this tends to make people think that you are a better diver if you use less lead? It is a ridiculous fallacy.

It is always better to be too heavy, rather than too light and the BC perfoms marvelously to compensate for a few extra lbs of lead. The additional bubble of air is more to manage, but unless you do the whole dive in very shallow water, this is really not much of an issue for a somewhat skilled diver.

As for being able to float on the surface with a failed BC?... that is a completely ridiculous reason to try to minimize your lead. The correct response to a failed BC and simultaneously running out of air and also not having a snorkel to allow the diver to rest comfortably on the surface with the head submerged... is to ditch some lead - NOT carry too little.

Respectfully, totally disagree, - Self dependent not gear dependent. You absolutely can use as one factor, a divers weight belt as a gauge of their skill, knowledge and experience. We dive the Channel Islands all summer long in 1/8 inch shortys, Faber steels, a plastic pack or steel plate with no BC and no weight belt or maybe 4 lbs on one of the tank straps. On the other hand, I am on boats with students on their 3rd OW dives with 1/4 inch suits and 40# of lead, usually swimming along the bottom in a fully inflated BC and in a vertical position - look like they're crossing the street or something. Nothing more dangerous and its a contributing factor why people quit the sport - whats the fun in that?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Good advice. Some agencies recommend checking weighting with a nearly empty tank holding a stop at 10 feet rather than at 15 feet. This actually gives you the extra pound or two over your result at 15 feet.

... I do it at 8 feet, since the majority of local diving is from shore, and divers generally follow the bottom till they can stand up ... and 8 feet is half way between safety stop and surface ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The class shouldn't move forward until everyone is on board with proper weighting - that's my personal thought on that matter. I was certified in 1972 and you, number one, didn't have a buoyancy compensating device, certainly didn't need one in a swimming pool with a hard pack and a steel 72 in swimwear. When we moved on to the OW Skin Diving day, or snorkeling as people call it now, that was the day you figured out your weighting with the instructors guidance. Yes, you were in whatever wetsuit you planned on using for your first scuba OW training dive. As I remember it, most people used around 8 or ten pounds of weight. I don't remember anyone having any issues but then again these students were very fit "old folks" most in their 20's or early 30's - a few Marines from Camp Pendleton too.

I remember being very unsure if I was going to wash out of scuba training - I was a great swimmer and thought I could keep up but the other students were like ducks in the water.

---------- Post added August 5th, 2015 at 12:11 PM ----------



Respectfully, totally disagree, - Self dependent not gear dependent. You absolutely can use as one factor, a divers weight belt as a gauge of their skill, knowledge and experience. We dive the Channel Islands all summer long in 1/8 inch shortys, Faber steels, a plastic pack or steel plate with no BC and no weight belt or maybe 4 lbs on one of the tank straps. On the other hand, I am on boats with students on their 3rd OW dives with 1/4 inch suits and 40# of lead, usually swimming along the bottom in a fully inflated BC and in a vertical position - look like they're crossing the street or something. Nothing more dangerous and its a contributing factor why people quit the sport - whats the fun in that?

As a DM, there have been a few times where I had to step in and demand that people NOT overweight themselves to a dangerous level. On the other hand the manic pursuit of the lowest possible SAC and the absolute minimum of lead are both, in my opinion, silly.

Oh yeah, the pursuit of the absolute minimally size BC capacity is also unwise in my opinion. Having some extra (reserve) buoyancy capacity is sometimes useful and having enough lead to easily hold down an smb on a string are both beneficial in many situations.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I disagree. What if the diver is trying to do a stop with less than 500 psi and a boat comes over with propellers turning? They may well float uncontrollably to the surface. I prefer to keep a little air in the BC. If the diver is wearing a thick wetsuit and is neutral at 15 feet.. they are going to be quite buoyant at 5 ft. The ascent from 5 feet should be slow, NOT floating up.

Another reason to have some extra lead is deployment of an smb on a reel or spool. It will take 2-4 lbs of downward force on the string to make the float stick up and be functional.. maybe even more force. So who wants to be trying to swim down and not inhale too much as they struggle to stay submerged and hold the float down? What do you think this would do to a diver's comfort level and exertion level and enjoyment of the dive. They are much, much more likely to say "screw it" and float to the surface and skip or abbreviate their safety stop. If they have accidentally gone into deco, this could have more serious consequences.

It is not a contest who can use the least amount of lead. I guess?? because FAT people need lots of lead and thin, fit people need considerably less, this tends to make people think that you are a better diver if you use less lead? It is a ridiculous fallacy.

It is always better to be too heavy, rather than too light and the BC perfoms marvelously to compensate for a few extra lbs of lead. The additional bubble of air is more to manage, but unless you do the whole dive in very shallow water, this is really not much of an issue for a somewhat skilled diver.

As for being able to float on the surface with a failed BC?... that is a completely ridiculous reason to try to minimize your lead. The correct response to a failed BC and simultaneously running out of air and also not having a snorkel to allow the diver to rest comfortably on the surface with the head submerged... is to ditch some lead - NOT carry too little.

If you read back I mentioned that it important to know what the minimum weight is so that adjustments can be made accordingly. If somebody is grossly overweighted, taking a few lbs off at a time may do very little to improve things. Sometimes changes in the 10 to 15 lb range need to be made to get them where they need to be. If SMB's are to be used, if dry suits are going to be used, if a person chooses to do a 10 ft. stop then a little weight can be added, and I said that.
The reason I used 15' as a depth is because that's what they train in rec OW, not 10'. 10' is what they trained in tech.
It's not a contest to see who can use the smallest amount of weight.
It's about shedding uneeded weight that doesn't need to be there for those who got bad info.
It's the combo of everything on the diver balanced by the amount of weight needed to dive a desired profile. That could be any combo of things including the body composition of any said diver. With all the variables there actually would be no way to have a contest, a contest about what? It's all dictated by individual need.

I feel very strongly about being able to float on the surface just by unremovable floatation. There have been incidents of people coming up hurt and incoherent then dropping back down to drown.
There have also been incidents of people unable to release weights on the surface when panicked with a failed BC.
Some of the new integrated weight systems require a squeeze lock to be depressed before the weight pocket can be pulled out. i could see how this could be an issue to an overweighted Panicked diver with a failed BC at the surface.
I think it's an abuse of gear to depend on a bag of air to keep someone who's overweighted floating on the surface, then when air is released they sink. I think it's a very ill advised practice just for the sake of convenience. That was not the original intent of a BC.
I think it's a crutch, and I think it's dangerous.
A person can drown just as dead in 6" of water as they can at 200'.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If you read back I mentioned that it important to know what the minimum weight is so that adjustments can be made accordingly. If somebody is grossly overweighted, taking a few lbs off at a time may do very little to improve things. Sometimes changes in the 10 to 15 lb range need to be made to get them where they need to be. If SMB's are to be used, if dry suits are going to be used, if a person chooses to do a 10 ft. stop then a little weight can be added, and I said that.
The reason I used 15' as a depth is because that's what they train in rec OW, not 10'. 10' is what they trained in tech.
It's not a contest to see who can use the smallest amount of weight.
It's about shedding uneeded weight that doesn't need to be there for those who got bad info.
It's the combo of everything on the diver balanced by the amount of weight needed to dive a desired profile. That could be any combo of things including the body composition of any said diver. With all the variables there actually would be no way to have a contest, a contest about what? It's all dictated by individual need.

I feel very strongly about being able to float on the surface just by unremovable floatation. There have been incidents of people coming up hurt and incoherent then dropping back down to drown.
There have also been incidents of people unable to release weights on the surface when panicked with a failed BC.
Some of the new integrated weight systems require a squeeze lock to be depressed before the weight pocket can be pulled out. i could see how this could be an issue to an overweighted Panicked diver with a failed BC at the surface.
I think it's an abuse of gear to depend on a bag of air to keep someone who's overweighted floating on the surface, then when air is released they sink. I think it's a very ill advised practice just for the sake of convenience. That was not the original intent of a BC.
I think it's a crutch, and I think it's dangerous.
A person can drown just as dead in 6" of water as they can at 200'.

Drowning at the surface is an issue. I agree that pinch clips to ditch lead could be problematic. I personally feel that a weight belt is simpler and easier (and safer) to ditch than some of the more "modern" contraptions on a BC. However, the SCUBA diver needs enough lead to be stable at a depth of 3 ft or so with an empty tank. This is not consistent with having ample buoyancy at the surface.

If you are "dumb" enough to strap lead on your body and go in the water, then you damn sure should know how to ditch it.. How's that for simple?

If a diver reaches the surface in a panic, has no snorkel (or can not use one) and they are constrained by scuba gear and there is a rough sea state, then.. it is going to take a considerable amount of kicking or buoyancy to hold their whole head out of the water- which will be necessary for them to calm down and get air. This amount of buoyancy is not going to be attained without ditching lead or inflating a BC.

If a diver it too panicked to inflate the BC or drop lead, then without the help of a buddy or an anchor line or float to grab.. they are gonna be in trouble. Over weighting is bad, but assuming that the diver will always have enough "natural" buoyancy at the surface without a BC and without ditching lead is NOT realistic..

Imagine if they are diving with a big steel tank.. That will hold like 8-9 lbs of air in it at the start of the dive.

If the diver freaks out and shoots to the surface and say for example.. forgot to turn their air on.. and their Bc is fully vented... then they absolutely MUST be heavy.. something on the order of 8-12 lbs or so... A panic diver in this situation is going to have a problem if they can't ditch weight.