What do you consider "gimmick" gear?

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The difference in philosophy with using a bunged backup is not that you know where it is, but that it is a few inches from your mouth where it would need to be in an emergency.

It is the octo holders that are the gimmick, most are made for maximum profit and not for reliability. I've always preferred cheap and functional and have not had problems.

And no I am not DIR, I do not always dive with a bunged backup, I have had a "Air2" type second on my rig, and sometimes I do not dive with a backup reg at all. I have a buddy that dives his BP/W with an Air 2, once had to use his short primary and hold a stop, no big deal.

The way I look at gimmicks is that the greater profits on those items can help keep the mundane gear I need at a reasonable price.


Bob
The problem I see with gimmick gear is when it takes off and replaces the simple old stuff that worked.
An example is the simple plastic back pack. When the poodle jacket took off it pretty much made the plastic pack obsolete. But to me the shape and simplicity of the pack was perfect. It would have been a much more natural progression if the plastic packs were morphed into heavier metal plates and then wings added as things progressed further. The the way it happened the stab jacket came in and stole the show and it wasn't until years later that the simple plate and wing came back. So in that reference a piece of gimmick came in and screwed everything up for a time.
 
True, however the inflator and octo, in a combo unit is in series. AKA inflator and octo coming from one hose vs 2 independent hoses. One could argue that they aren't independent because they come from the same tank, but that's missing the point. With the point being: What is going to happen if your inflation hose has to be disconnected? You are going to lose your octo. This is an unsafe situation for your buddy...now he has no spare air source at all. You need to call the dive immediately. Simply losing your inflator, and your inflator alone, is not a potentially life threatening situation.



Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as are you! I personally regard them as an unnecessary safety hazard. But, that's just me! :) Well, maybe not just me but anyway. :)



If you are analyzing safety... which is safer, having an extra hose coming off the first stage or not?

Which is safer, having a normal octopus that is subject to a potential freeflow which has the possibility to completely drain ALL your air.. or using an air 2 which (should it start to freeflow) have the ability to instantly disconnect and stop the gas loss immediately?

You seem to think that should the air 2 begin to leak air, then the dive should be terminated because the hose would be disconnected and the diver would not have the ability to breath from it. However, should the diver wish to continue the dive, AND his buddy should need to receive air, then the pair can simply buddy breathe from one second stage. Apparently you feel this is a life threatening situation... this is not necessarily so. The fact that you think along those lines is probably related to being a new diver and the fact that buddy breathing is no longer being taught (as far as I know). However, it is a very useful skill and a viable option in openwater situations.

Your thinking on this topic also seems rather narrow in that you feel that should a standard BC inflator fail and need to be disconnected from the LP hose, that the dive could be continued (without the ability to power inflate) and this would (apparently) NOT be a life threatening situation.

Personally, I feel that neither orally inflating a BC nor buddy breathing are "life threatening" situations - assuming you have a particular skill set.

Another potential safety benefit of the AIR 2 is that it is much, much easier to disconnect quickly in an emergency. Disconnecting the normal inflator hose with thick gloves and in cold water with numb hands is NOT simple, easy or necessarily fast, Delaying the disconnection could result in an uncontrolled ascent which MAY be life threatening. Possibly as a new diver, you don't know this, but a stuck (auo inflating) inflator is a VERY common problem in comparison to other scuba gear failure modes. This type of failure is much, much more likely than a hose failing or even a diver running out of air.

So I am not trying to convince you that you should continue to dive after any gear failure, but on the other hand, possibly you have not considered some of these other factors.

I'm not selling air-2's either, I've used them for like 15 years maybe and have had very little trouble with them. I can understand why people don't like them, but they do have some advantages and your attempt to talk about serial and parallel failure modes is somewhat over simplified.

If you are going to try to analyze the safety of various systems, you need to understand the likelihood (and consequences) of each particular failure mode.
 
If you are analyzing safety...

You make some good points. :) Although, I find this whole discussion rather strange. I personally do not feel comfortable using a combo unit and I state the reasons why and then people start telling me I'm wrong. Seriously?... Really? Since when do other people get to decide what I feel comfortable with? Umm, answer, since never!... What, are people personally offended that I don't like combo units? If so, come on now, that's ridiculous. Really.
 
People are reacting to your style and highly rebuttable absolutism. The flaws in your parallel vs serial argument have been pointed out more than once, yet you simply restate it, doubling down on snark. Maybe tone it down a bit and actually respond thoughtfully, mr. engineer.
 
You make some good points. :) Although, I find this whole discussion rather strange. I personally do not feel comfortable using a combo unit and I state the reasons why and then people start telling me I'm wrong. Seriously?... Really? Since when do other people get to decide what I feel comfortable with? Umm, answer, since never!... What, are people personally offended that I don't like combo units? If so, come on now, that's ridiculous. Really.


It is OK to have those feelings, but your reasons for having them are wrong...Seriously.. :D
 
You make some good points. :) Although, I find this whole discussion rather strange. I personally do not feel comfortable using a combo unit and I state the reasons why and then people start telling me I'm wrong. Seriously?... Really? Since when do other people get to decide what I feel comfortable with? Umm, answer, since never!... What, are people personally offended that I don't like combo units? If so, come on now, that's ridiculous. Really.

If you do not feel comfortable diving a combo unit then that is fine but don't classify them as a gimmick. In theory you say they are more troublesome because they both work off the same hose. However, in practice this isn't a problem. Perhaps this is because unlike a conventional inflator an Air 2 gets rebuilt every year or two. Air 2s and the like have been around since the 1980s and other manufacturers started making them once Scubapro's patent ran out. If they were troublesome we would have known it by now. I am not telling you how to dive or what to dive with, I just don't accept your reasoning.
 
People are reacting to your style and highly rebuttable absolutism. The flaws in your parallel vs serial argument have been pointed out more than once, yet you simply restate it, doubling down on snark. Maybe tone it down a bit and actually respond thoughtfully, mr. engineer.

The flaws in my statements having been pointed out is what I disagree with. I don't think they have been "highly rebutted" at all. Although, I don't really see a point in continuing to debate it. I don't actually care if other people disagree with me. They can believe whatever they want. They can go dive with a garden hose for all I care! Although, I don't consider strawman rebuttals to my statements to be the same as "pointing out flaws". Because a strawman by definition is a logically unsound way to address someone's statements.

Although, I do tend to double down on snark when people don't allow me to have my own opinion. Guilty on that count!

If you do not feel comfortable diving a combo unit then that is fine but don't classify them as a gimmick.

Don't classify them as a gimmick? Why not? Are you saying I'm not allowed to think what I think? I'm wondering why other people even care what I think? Why does it even matter to anyone else what I think about MY own gear? I see them as a gimmick. What effect does this have on you? Well, it doesn't have any! Perhaps maybe a bruised ego because people don't like to see someone who doesn't have the same opinion as them? Why do people even care what kind of gear I prefer to wear? I don't know!

I just don't accept your reasoning

I think that much is obvious! And I don't accept yours. I don't think there should be anything wrong with either of those things. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion!
 
As stated previously in this thread just because you don't like it doesn't make it a gimmick. Although your more then welcome to not like them or feel that they are an unsafe gear choice.

OK nuf said on integrated octos. Moving on. "Vented hoods" hey let me put a hole in that hood so it can vent. And then let me charge u more for this special hole.

Sent from my galaxy S5 Active.
 
Although, I do tend to double down on snark when people don't allow me to have my own opinion.

Is the dive count in your profile accurate?

Sometimes it's hard for folks to take strong/absolute opinions and double-down snark seriously when they come from someone with fewer total dives lifetime than many folks in this thread have done last week.

Trust me, I've got lots of experience... in strong opinions and snark.

:D

---------- Post added October 15th, 2015 at 09:34 AM ----------

"Vented hoods" hey let me put a hole in that hood so it can vent. And then let me charge u more for this special hole.

Like charging more for fins with a big rip in them.

Todd3.JPG
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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