Some days are harder than others

[CptTightPants21]

I don't think it really matters what is said here. You have been told repeatedly that there is no way you are ready for tech with 50 dives and repeatedly you have ignored people with far more experience than yourself. You use the shield of "I need instruction" and "Well, if my instructor thinks I..." to take classes and learn skills that are learned from actually diving, mentoring from others, and taking classes that ARE NOT AN/DP. Loss of buoyancy is one things that comes with training and shows inexperience, 20ft to 10-12ft is is one thing, to actually breach the surface shows you are no where near ready. No one should doing their first dives in doubles for AN/DP

I already know where this is going, you are going to do a crap ton of dives with him, string along a half way decent skill on this dive, sort of complete that drill on that dive, meet the "standard" on that. All without having a real foundation or mastery and he is just going to give you the card because, yes, you technically passed the class within standards. This type of instructor isn't rare in scuba, its how I know a guy with AN/DP card and 50 plus deco dives who can't back kick and his helicopter turns look like a scene from Black Hawk Down.

I just would have thought that a person who is on this board so much and who sees the level of experience and skill level that is required to be a "real" technical diver would know better.

I have already written this off and I consider you beyond help, but my last little suggestion:

List five characteristics of what you think a tech diver should look like. Could be something simple like hold position at an actual X for Y time, or give a blue water S-drill with zero loss of buoyancy. I would like to see the list, but even if you don't post it, look back on it after you get your AN/DP card and know in your heart whether or not your really "passed".

 

[rhwestfall]

compounding new equipment and new skills (along with a short dive experience)... yeah, not kosher...

As a comparison, in my recent class, there were two of us. I have had certs going back 26 years ago for OW, had a dry suit for 12+ years, dove a BP/W w/ single tank tech configuration for the last 4 years, and slung a pony for at least 5 years. I dove "old school" doubles off a single post for a few years, so the "balance" was familiar to me. The other diver was buying all new gear for the class. Much different outcome for each of us.....

Stuart, keep striving, but "slow down"..... I know you had a real cool objective in your sights requiring a relatively compressed schedule, but i think you need to evaluate that again. Its all part of the discipline of technical diving....

 

[tbone1004]

my only real surprise here is from the instructor. For an intro to tech class, there should have been quite a bit of time spend on getting the rig balanced and adjusted properly. With bands significantly lower than normal, harness that wasn't adjusted, and weighting quite out of line, I'm genuinely surprised the instructor didn't put the brakes on and back up to the beginning on getting everything fit and adjusted properly.

The timing, the attitude, whatever doesn't confuse me, it's the nature of the beast, but the fact that the tech instructor didn't have you go back to square one and get the rig fit properly first, then weighted second....

 

[tomfcrist]

Tom, I find it interesting you don't feel the classes should be combined... especially as you are NAUI. The first sessions of a combined class are the NAUI Introduction to Technical Diving (1 lecture, one gear workshop, four dives), then NAUI Technical Decompression Diver (three lectures, seven dives). These are minimums in regard to dives, with skills in confined (i.e.: quarry - shallow waters) waters simulating DECO, gas switches, etc. performed in advance of applying it to deep dives.... Is it that the expectation is it has to be the minimums? We were told up front that it will take as long as it takes to step through the skills & dives.....

Am I messed up here?

Im not sure what point you are trying to make. but here is why I don't think they should be combined.

The objective of the Intro class is this:

This course is designed to give the open water or advanced diveran opportunity to improve their skills, knowledge, and equipmentconfiguration, thereby increasing their safety and efficiency. Thiscourse is also intended to introduce divers to the rigors of technical​

diver training.


The objective of the Deco Class is this:

This course is to provide the diver with a working knowledge of thetheory, methods, and procedures of planned staged-decompressiondiving while using optimal breathing gas mixtures. As a part ofthe course students will plan and conduct a standard staged decompressiondive not exceeding a maximum depth of 130 fsw​

(40 msw).


A Prereq for the Deco course Clearly states:

The instructor is to ensure adequate student knowledge andcapability before any open water training and shall use skill​

or other evaluations to do so.

I don't see a reason to charge a student for both courses when you don't know if they can even make it through the INTRO.

compounding new equipment and new skills (along with a short dive experience)... yeah, not kosher...

And then you answered your own question in your next post.

 

[RJP]

Question to all you instructors, what do you consider acceptable buoyancy? +/-1', +/-2'? Deco on a lift bag/DSMB? What about on mooring lines & jon lines?

Tom, I find it interesting you don't feel the classes should be combined... especially as you are NAUI. The first sessions of a combined class are the NAUI Introduction to Technical Diving (1 lecture, one gear workshop, four dives), then NAUI Technical Decompression Diver (three lectures, seven dives). These are minimums in regard to dives, with skills in confined (i.e.: quarry - shallow waters) waters simulating DECO, gas switches, etc. performed in advance of applying it to deep dives.... Is it that the expectation is it has to be the minimums? We were told up front that it will take as long as it takes to step through the skills & dives.....

Am I messed up here?

I just went through this (actually, didn't complete it as schedules conflicted for more planned DECO dives), and also added NAUI Helitrox Diver (2 lectures, one equipment workshop, four dives).....

Rob - in much the same way that the course requirements are "minimums" so are the pre-requisites to enter the course. Simply meeting the minimum dive count for a tech course does not necessarily mean that a student is ready to take the course.

I won't go as far as to say that buoyancy needs to be "perfect" before starting tech training. But it certainly needs to be second nature. It's not about keeping +/- 1ft... it's about being able to control where you are in the water column without the need to completely focus all your efforts on doing so.

As Tom highlights, a good instructor will ensure that a student has the requisite skills and abilities PRIOR to accepting them into the course.

 

[decompression]

Stuart, I agree wholeheartedly with your getting training on doubles before diving them on your own. That's my recommendation to many prospective tech students, be it mentoring or intro to tech, that's a great stepping stone.

From there I do an analysis of skills before progressing to DP, smb deployment, propulsion etc. Just to ensure they are ready.

What you are doing is fine but far more challenging with the obvious frustration. I'm relieved your instructor is slowing things down, allowing more work on foundations. There should be several simulated deco dives while not actually incurring deco. Keep it up.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stuartv]

Stuart, keep striving, but "slow down"..... I know you had a real cool objective in your sights requiring a relatively compressed schedule, but i think you need to evaluate that again. Its all part of the discipline of technical diving....

I think some of y'all are doing me a disservice.

Is there anything wrong with wanting to get some training on diving doubles before starting to dive doubles?

Yes, I want to do it all, and right now. But, have I posted anything about wanting to take shortcuts? No. But, some of you have extrapolated (unfairly, I think) my desire to do it all as soon as I can into meaning I want to take shortcuts. Your response seems to be "starting AN/DP with only 50 dives IS the shortcut." And I ask: Is there is a problem with starting it too soon? Or a problem with FINISHING too soon? Really, in my mind, I STARTED it almost a year ago with my first OW class. My desire is to do it "all" and, basically, as quickly as I can, WITHOUT taking shortcuts. To me, that means getting regular instruction and diving as much as I can on my own, along with that instruction. Which is what I've been doing for the last year. If you think I need 200 dives, is there a reason you think I also need to spread them out over 3 or 4 years, too? Or is it okay to be eager and do the dives in only, say, 2 years? What is wrong with diving more often to get the experience, as long as I am indeed doing "quality" dives and getting a good range of experience?

Now that I have gotten training in diving doubles AND my instructor has dived with me in my doubles and blessed me to go dive doubles on my recreational dives, I will dive them every time I go out. I also note that the only time I corked was when I took 8 # off my rig to experiment, at the suggestion of my instructor. I have done 9 dives now (IIRC) in doubles - 6 in my drysuit (with doubles). I've only had any significant issues on one of those days - the day I posted about to start this thread.

I have also posted that my new schedule for COMPLETING AN+DP is now sometime in the Spring. And I don't have any problem with that! I don't understand why some of you insist on accusing me of not listening and not being ready for tech. Obviously, I am not ready to be issued a card. What is wrong with taking a 9 month(? at this point) long class, that starts when I have 50 dives, and ends with me having who-knows-how-many dives and being AN+DP certified? I'm not pushing my instructor to certify me early or any time before my skills are totally solid.

I really don't think I deserve this comment:

you are going to do a crap ton of dives with him, string along a half way decent skill on this dive, sort of complete that drill on that dive, meet the "standard" on that.

Particularly from someone who has never seen me dive, met me in person, or has any direct, personal knowledge of my instructor. The whole reason my instructor has now deferred the plan for checkout dives is because he will not certify me if that's how I am. It's like some of you claim to be an instructor who would take a student and work with them for however long it takes to ensure that they are SOLID, but you won't give any else even the benefit of the doubt that they MIGHT be the same way. Would you come down off your high horse if I started calling my instructor my mentor, instead? He also runs a dive club that I am part of, and I have gone diving with him outside of any specific class or formal training, so I do consider him to be my mentor as well as formal instructor. I really can't see what the problem is with him, essentially, taking me under his wing and starting to work with me at this early stage to bring me along to the point where I am SOLID and he is willing to certify me.

 

[Dhboner]

...and nothing changes.

 

[stuartv]

my only real surprise here is from the instructor. For an intro to tech class, there should have been quite a bit of time spend on getting the rig balanced and adjusted properly. With bands significantly lower than normal, harness that wasn't adjusted, and weighting quite out of line, I'm genuinely surprised the instructor didn't put the brakes on and back up to the beginning on getting everything fit and adjusted properly.

This does prompt me to note that my first weekend in the water with doubles was in a wetsuit. On the first day, I was able to complete a valve drill correctly, while holding within 1 foot of depth and staying in trim.

My second weekend with him was one day of diving (just for fun, not a formal training session) and it was my first day in a drysuit with doubles. I could not reach my valves, so I aborted my attempt to do my valve drill, but we carried on with our dives. Two dives that day and I had zero issues with buoyancy or trim, including while rigging a reel to my SMB and shooting it to the surface. I stayed exactly level with him at depth and in trim during both times that we shot bags and then did staged ascents. Ditto for the second dive that day where I performed a gas switch (from air to air).

So, I think by this past weekend he was not expecting me to have any real issues. But, I guess I shot myself in the foot by making the wrong adjustments to my rig in order to be able to reach my valves. And maybe changing to a new wing also played into my troubles. I still did not have major issues on Saturday - just minor ones. It was just Sunday, when I really just seemed to be mentally shot - and then tried my weighting experiment which worked out poorly - that I had major issues.

His email from last night, resetting the schedule is, in my view, him putting the brakes on, as you say, to back up and get these basics sorted out.

---------- Post added October 20th, 2015 at 11:29 AM ----------

There should be several simulated deco dives while not actually incurring deco. Keep it up.....

Yep. We've been doing those, too. I think every dive we've done we always end with deploying SMBs and doing a staged ascent (10' at a time, then stop and hover for a minute). And, after the first dive of the weekend, each subsequent dive, we also go a gas switch at 20' (switching from air to air in the deco bottle). I haven't had any difficulty with that. It's just been difficulty in reaching my valves in my drysuit, and then the stuff I wrote about to start this thread... one day that was worse than all the rest.

---------- Post added October 20th, 2015 at 11:29 AM ----------

...and nothing changes.

Indeed.... *sigh*

 

[rhwestfall]

I don't see a reason to charge a student for both courses when you don't know if they can even make it through the INTRO.

This is what I needed to hear.... okay, I get what you are saying....

What I experienced was a sequential set of "modules" if you want to acknowledge that they were truly separate which they are, but bundled as the academic portions do somewhat blur the lines between them....

---------- Post added October 20th, 2015 at 11:47 AM ----------

As Tom highlights, a good instructor will ensure that a student has the requisite skills and abilities PRIOR to accepting them into the course.

One would hope....