Some days are harder than others

[Jim Lapenta]

As I recall I got the same advice. I did intro and helitrox with a naui tech instructor. Before that I had over 100 dives in my drysuit. Somewhere around number 75 of those and 200 or so overall I got my first set of doubles. LP72's. Put 30 or so dives on those and then bought a set of lp 85's. Then I started tech classes. By that time my buoyancy and trim were good in the drysuit. Very good in fact and I saw no noticeable issues of any consequence when I switched from singles. I started sidemount after diving doubles for nearly 6 years. Somewhere around dive 550 or so. I now have over 100 in sidemount wet and dry. Taking my time has paid off every step of the way. I was in a rush in 2007-8 when I started tech. Plan was to do the Doria when I turned 50 in 2010. Then my wife died. Still haven't done the dive but it's not that important any more. I get excited on a 3 hour sm dive in 20 feet of water looking for bottles. I am far enough in my training now to do any dive I really want to do. I'm ok to 200 feet. That's good enough for now. Tech diving is expensive. The risks are high. If you don't have the basics like buoyancy and trim nailed down in what you plan to use to start, you shouldn't even start tech training. IMO. I turned down an an/dp student earlier this year. He had over 100 dives and numerous recreational certs. Most of his dives were class dives. I talked him into getting another 100 or so fun dives in. If he was still interested in tech after 50 of them he should buy a set of 72's or 85's and take intro with me or someone else that knows what they are doing. Get 50 dives in them. Then talk to me about an/dp.

 

[Michael Guerrero]

In cold water (low 40s, high 30s) I dive HP130s, SS BP, and still use 4# of extra lead. I plan my weighting for empty tanks as a worst case. I factor that I need about 25# to sink myself (6'3", 215lbs) in my thick undergarments.

Worthington HP130s empty w/o valves = neutral
BP = -6lbs
Bands = -4lbs
Manifold & tank valves = -5lbs
Regs = -3lbs
Misc crap (lights, clips, reel, etc.) = -3lbs
Total = -21lbs of stuff on me that doesn't float.

Neutral in the drysuit at 25lbs means I add 4lbs. In my (Faber) LP85s I add 9lbs.

If I'm taking a stage/deco bottles AL80s are about +2 empty and AL40s are about +1. I factor those in too.

 

[stuartv]

Perhaps it is just me but before I took a tech course I would want to get some dives in on dry suit and tanks and wing etc. My non-tech recommendation is to go do a bunch of diving with the intended configuration and after you are comfortable and have things better dialed in take the course. Sounds like task loading not even counting the course. What is the rush? You are still new to diving. You want to become old while diving also.

I've been diving dry since around April and have demonstrated satisfactory (to my instructor) buoyancy and trim while diving dry (with a single tank) prior to starting the class.

I've spelled it out before (in other threads), but I abbreviated in this thread. The course is actually combined Intro to Tech + AN + DP. The Intro to Tech portion is/was (in part) to cover teaching how to dive doubles. Some of you may be surprised to read this (because, I think, I have been misjudged on occasion), but I've had doubles for months and I chose not to dive with doubles until after I actually received training in how to do it safely.

Thus, I am learning to dive doubles as part of this class. So, no, I did not go diving with them before the class started in order to get comfortable with that configuration. That is exactly what part of the class is for. What some of you have posted is that I should have started diving doubles on my own, before getting training, so that I would already be "good" with doubles before starting the class. Frankly, I don't agree with that. Getting training on any major change to my configuration before I go dive it on my own is (one facet of) HOW I plan I become old while diving.

 

[tomfcrist]

Thus, I am learning to dive doubles as part of this class. So, no, I did not go diving with them before the class started in order to get comfortable with that configuration. That is exactly what part of the class is for. What some of you have posted is that I should have started diving doubles on my own, before getting training, so that I would already be "good" with doubles before starting the class. Frankly, I don't agree with that. Getting training on any major change to my configuration before I go dive it on my own is (one facet of) HOW I plan I become old while diving.

That's fine. I just think there is a large gap between learning to dive doubles and trying to be perfectly trimmed and neutral in them during an AN/DP class....Which is why I wont teach the intro class in conjunction with AN/DP. There are many things to learn and get dialed in before you try to hold no-reference mid water stops, or even just multitask in a new configuration. I suggest (again) that you get some miles in your doubles prior to moving forward with AN/DP. It WILL make a world of difference.

 

[stuartv]

That's fine. I just think there is a large gap between learning to dive doubles and trying to be perfectly trimmed and neutral in them during an AN/DP class....Which is why I wont teach the intro class in conjunction with AN/DP. There are many things to learn and get dialed in before you try to hold no-reference mid water stops, or even just multitask in a new configuration. I suggest (again) that you get some miles in your doubles prior to moving forward with AN/DP. It WILL make a world of difference.

Well, if it makes any of y'all feel any better , my instructor emailed my class last night and told us that he's decided not to schedule our checkout dives for later in November as we'd originally planned/hoped. Instead, he's going to keep us practicing over the Winter, with pool sessions once the nearby quarries close, and aim to resume open water training and then do checkout dives in the Spring. It's kind of disappointing, but, at the same time, I don't mind at all getting a lot more practice in (on my own and with my instructor) before being "turned loose". I was not the only student that had issues over this past weekend (though I think I will resolve my issues relatively quickly). And, he was very clear from the very beginning of the class that aiming for checkouts in November was very aggressive and he offered no guarantees that he would deem us ready by then.

 

[doctormike]

What some of you have posted is that I should have started diving doubles on my own, before getting training, so that I would already be "good" with doubles before starting the class. Frankly, I don't agree with that.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

 

[Dhboner]

I think you are missing the point a few folks are trying to make. The skills you are trying to master require that you have a pretty solid foundation diving your gear before you start. That is evident from the problems you had. The people who are offering advice are simply saying that you will have a greater chance of success moving forward if you take the time to log a bunch of dives in doubles, sort out your weighting and trim and get comfortable reaching back for your valves. None of that is a skill that requires an instructor. I remember struggling with "Intro to Tech" and my instructor told me to go away, log a few dozen more dives and come back when I was solid with the gear I owned. I did exactly that and succeeded. It is important to spend some time on each rung of the ladder before you step up to the next one. I switched to sidemount last year, have logged dozens of dives and I am still figuring it out.

 

[tomfcrist]

Well, if it makes any of y'all feel any better , my instructor emailed my class last night and told us that he's decided not to schedule our checkout dives for later in November as we'd originally planned/hoped. Instead, he's going to keep us practicing over the Winter, with pool sessions once the nearby quarries close, and aim to resume open water training and then do checkout dives in the Spring. It's kind of disappointing, but, at the same time, I don't mind at all getting a lot more practice in (on my own and with my instructor) before being "turned loose". I was not the only student that had issues over this past weekend (though I think I will resolve my issues relatively quickly). And, he was very clear from the very beginning of the class that aiming for checkouts in November was very aggressive and he offered no guarantees that he would deem us ready by then.

Its not about making any of us "feel better". Don't get wrapped up in who had issues or didn't, its not about that either. Just get out and dive. I promise you that you will get better with comfort in doubles(even in a drysuit) if you just get out and dive.

Olive branch---I'll be at Lake Phoenix on November 14-15. If you need an excuse to just get in the water and fool around with buoyancy and trim in your full doubles/deco bottle/Drysuit config....I'll dive with you in the afternoon.

 

[rhwestfall]

Question to all you instructors, what do you consider acceptable buoyancy? +/-1', +/-2'? Deco on a lift bag/DSMB? What about on mooring lines & jon lines?

Tom, I find it interesting you don't feel the classes should be combined... especially as you are NAUI. The first sessions of a combined class are the NAUI Introduction to Technical Diving (1 lecture, one gear workshop, four dives), then NAUI Technical Decompression Diver (three lectures, seven dives). These are minimums in regard to dives, with skills in confined (i.e.: quarry - shallow waters) waters simulating DECO, gas switches, etc. performed in advance of applying it to deep dives.... Is it that the expectation is it has to be the minimums? We were told up front that it will take as long as it takes to step through the skills & dives.....

Am I messed up here?

I just went through this (actually, didn't complete it as schedules conflicted for more planned DECO dives), and also added NAUI Helitrox Diver (2 lectures, one equipment workshop, four dives).....

 

[packrat12]

Impatience and technical diving do not go well together. One of the hallmarks of a technical diver is discipline. This does not just mean getting the training and skills but rather the ability to step back and assess everything from yourself to what you are doing. There is no rush to the finish line in technical diving. Unlike recreational diving which is more forgiving, in technical diving when you overstep your skills, plans or capabilities, the end result is really really bad.

Your race from 0 time to Master Diver to technical diver does not allow substantial experience to be gained. This is fine in the recreational world where the ramifications of an issue are much less severe. My recommendation is to dive the tech config recreationally. Adjust it as necessary and get it dialed in. When I see your equipment list, it is more impressive than mine – and I have been diving for 30 years. There is no way you can become adept at the variations and variety that you must use for the different pieces of equipment you have in the time you have been diving. I would focus on the skills and configurations you are interested in based on the next level you are trying to obtain. I would then use this configuration for a while. At the end, you will become comfortable and ready to go to the next level. While I was going for my AN/Deco and shortly after, I did a lot of recreational dives in doubles just to get used to them. Nothing like the looks you get from other divers when we are doing a 40’ dive and I am in full tech rig.

An old saying here applies: There are bold divers. There are old divers. There are no bold, old divers. Lose the impatience. It will not serve you well in technical diving.