With Scuba or not with Scuba?

[IVC]

We didn't really find any equipment on the market that would serve this purpose, so currently pursue this idea developing AirBuddy, a small, light-weight and easy to use hookah equipment.

As long as you don't advertise it as "snorkeling" and ensure people understand they need the *same* training to use it as with SCUBA it's a good idea. It's not an afterthought, it should be a requirement to sell only to certified divers.

Here is what you say deep in your Q/A:

Do I need a diving license? This is a question we've been asked many times before. Although, we think it's not the right question to ask. Diving license is not a driving license. It is not illegal to dive without a license and there is no underwater police to pull you over. We think the question is rather "Do I need to understand what I am doing when diving?" The answer to that is "absolutely yes"! And it's really just common sense. Similar to any other sport, there is some theory to learn and some skills to acquire

This is a gross understatement since it reads as if it's common sense to be safe under water and not that it's common sense to get training. Besides, training should be required because breathing compressed air even at shallow depth is significantly more involved than holding breath in free diving. There is no amount of common sense that will replace what one learns in training. For example, how many people would know how to do CESA or three minute safety stop? That right there can easily result in embolism and/or DCI with depths the device allows (40').

 

[kelemvor]

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Personally Ms. Bisset, does not look at all weird in all this weird equipment. You get to choose how complicated you make it. But if you want better answers I would suggest doing a google search on local business that can more specifically answer your questions.

I will be the judge of that. If you could kindly arrange for me to inspect the situation in person...

 

[AirBuddy]

Hi all,

not sure what sparked the emotional reaction and the belief that we would ever want to lure anyone thinking that hookah diving is except to the diving risks. Please feel free to quote any statement from our website, but it would be beneficial for an unbiased conversation to copy the entire statement rather than just cutting off the sentences, creating a false impression of our position. The text continues and we do clearly recommend the use of all possible resources to learn and understand the diving theory and develop the required diving skills, including a training course, a book, an experienced buddy, online resources etc. A sad true is that occasional divers do tend to forget the theory and get confused, hence we urge them to refresh their skills. We invite anyone to have a constructive discussion to this topic. Please feel free to comment on the below points that summarize our current position:

1. NO - We don't know of any legislation that makes diving without a licence illegal. Should you be aware of such legislation in your country, please let us know. We have not screened the entire world, just selected markets.

2. YES - We strongly advocate that anyone who is diving needs to understand the diving theory and have practiced the skills, be confident in water and not overestimate his or her own skills and we will urge anyone to do so.

3. NO - We as a manufacturer are not in the position to enforce that purchase is only limited to the diving licence owners. This is due to very practical reasons. In addition to PADI, there is another 143 certification agencies for recreational diving. Building a proprietary dynamic real-time integration with their systems (if they even have any online retrieval system) is certainly above our possibilities. Furthermore, it does not provide any solution to the scenarios such as a "gift purchase", "secondary market", etc. Having multiple times purchased SCUBA diving equipment from the leading online stores without a proof of diving licence confirms that this is not a current industry standard. Is anyone aware of some best practices from other industries? As far as we know, you can purchase any adventure sport equipment online (or offline), including abseiling gear, base jumping wingsuit, motorbike, etc.

4. YES - We do plan to provide multimedia materials that are aimed to raise awareness as well as refresh diving skills. We will encourage any customer or a prospect to access and review this materials. They will be easily accessible and FREE of charge! As far as we know, this is unprecedented in the entire diving community. Should you know of any good and free online dive training and or materials (e.g. holistic summary videos, infographics with diving safety rules, etc.) please let us know. Perhaps, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.

5. YES - We do stress the importance of the ability to perform CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent) and encourage the people to only dive to depths that they feel comfortable to ascend from in case of any emergency. In addition, we promote the use of a completely independent emergency air system such as "SpareAir", especially by the less experienced divers.

Thank you all for your ideas and constructive comments.

Cheers, AirBuddy team

 

[IVC]

The real question is whether people who see a portable hookah system will think "this is potentially deadly if I'm not trained" or think "hey, this is super cool snorkeling." From what I've seen, virtually anyone without training will think that it's "snorkeling+." On any boat that provides snuba there are last minute people who would like to try it out without realizing that (1) it's supervised, and (2) there was some training in the pool. This is in stark contrast with people seeing scuba gear - there is an understanding that it's not just "pack up and go."

You are correct on most of your points - no argument there, but I will address #3. "Adventure Gear" is available for purchase, but virtually every industry has safeguards against non-licensed people getting hurt. If nothing else, it's bad for the business. No scuba shop will fill a tank of a non-licensed diver. No skydiving operation will take onboard an unlicensed skydiver. Sure people can go and get their own compressor or airplane and hurt themselves, but that is not that easy. There are industry-wide safeguards and for a good reason.

Compare to providing compressed air as part of an affordable product to anyone who thinks it's cool. You've removed the most critical deterrent - "cert in order to get air."

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you'll get a *much higher* proportion of untrained customers than you would find with the traditional scuba. Combined with doubling the maximum depth of traditional snuba, what happens when someone gets hurt and liability lawsuits start trickling in and it was you who provided the compressed air? I'm pretty sure that your exposure to liability would be similar to a shop filling a tank for an unlicensed diver.

Since this is a diving forum, I'm just giving you an honest personal opinion. Actually, I'd probably buy your product if it gets good reviews, it's just that I'm not too keen on a marketing strategy that seems to be light on very serious disclosures and appears to target more than just licensed divers. Just my 2c.

(If you think this is "emotional," both of us are wasting our time - me in giving you a different perspective and you in responding to something you don't care about.)

 

[KenGordon]

IVC, where I live, unless you make it very clear to the shop you are untrained you will get a fill. They assume you are safe for air, may ask for nitrox and will probably ask for helium.

In the post above you are attacking people for being who they are, manufacturers of a surface supply system. By and large it is a free world, people can buy and use systems like this if they please. They are probably adults, they probably make an informed choice.

 

[IVC]

Fair enough. It's none of my business.

 

[Searcaigh]

In fact in the UK there are auto fills available at some places to allow tanks to be filled out of normal working hours.

 

[AirBuddy]

Hi IVC,

our reply was to both previous comments, the one before yours a bit emotional. Hence the greeting should not have been directed to you but to both and I just corrected it. Apologies. We do appreciate your comments.

You raise a fair point, that people may overestimate their skills or underestimate the diving risks. I am not sure about the industry safeguards and what legislation does make the dive shop liable for any injury sustained by an untrained diver when renting a tank. Is this perhaps stipulated somewhere in "AS 3848.2-1999 Filling of portable gas cylinders - Filling of portable cylinders for SCUBA" or any corresponding US standard? I don't have access to these standards at the moment, so can't check. Nevertheless, we have been renting SCUBA tanks many many times, and never been asked for a diving license. Similarly, by a coincidence I just booked abseiling equipment today for the weekend and again no question about previous experience. Other sports that do not require any licence and/or tour operator or service provider, such as downhill-biking, paragliding, skiing, archery also lack any industry safeguards, right?

So I believe the question is broader: Does anyone know what jurisdiction defines the responsibility/liability of the manufacturer, distributor, retailer, sport association and the user in case of an accident? Is it the manufacturer who bears the ultimate responsibility, even if there was no malfunction? This makes me wonder, how do the gun manufacturers deal with a situation when someone gets hurt (in a US state that does not require a gun permit) when using their product? Does anyone know of any examples/ best practices/ jurisdiction from comparable industries? More importantly, any smart ideas on how to best prevent injuries sustained by inexperienced/ overconfident users?

In any case, we did establish AirBuddy because of our passion for diving and fascination by the underwater environment. Believe me, the last thing we would want is that anybody gets hurt. Not to mention the devastating effects on the brand, regardless of the legal liabilities. So we do plan to provide materials raising awareness, reminding of diving rules, warning of risks and encourage the customers to read and understand them. After all, it's in our own best interest. Hookah manufacturers have been existing for a long time, we are not the first one. Unfortunately, our competitors do leave the safety concern unaddressed. We aim to lead the way in how we address the safety concerns and what information/ materials we provide - unprecedented anywhere in the diving world (hookah and SCUBA included).

 

[IVC]

So I believe the question is broader: Does anyone know what jurisdiction defines the responsibility/liability of the manufacturer, distributor, retailer, sport association and the user in case of an accident? Is it the manufacturer who bears the ultimate responsibility, even if there was no malfunction? This makes me wonder, how do the gun manufacturers deal with a situation when someone gets hurt (in a US state that does not require a gun permit) when using their product? Does anyone know of any examples/ best practices/ jurisdiction from comparable industries? More importantly, any smart ideas on how to best prevent injuries sustained by inexperienced/ overconfident users?

Most liability claims come from implied negligence, so there is no legislation or jurisdiction that defines or controls it.

There are few quirks where liability stems from acts other than negligence. For example, there are treaties about liabilities of international air carriers in case of delays (not negligence,) and there is a legislative protection of gun manufacturers in the USA from frivolous lawsuits (trying to bankrupt an industry by claiming negligence when a properly funtioning product is used for criminal acts.) However, in both cases if there is assertion of negligence the lawsuits can proceed. For example, a person can get damage award if hurt in a plane crash where the pilot wasn't properly trained, or if injured by a malfunctioning gun.

As a manufacturer you are not responsible for misuse of your product as long as you make it very clear that a particular use is considered "a misuse." You have to both make it clear to the consumers AND have a business model where you don't derive significant revenue from what you consider "a misuse" if you want to minimize your exposure. In case of an injury, an attorney will have to show four elements (give or take): your duty, breach of that duty, cause of injury and injury. So, you'll be arguing in court whether you have a duty to minimize use of your product by untrained people, or you condone such a practice. That's where all the disclosures and what your website shows comes into play.

As for your final question, you should concentrate on how to discourage use by untrained people who can and will get hurt, not on how to minimize untrained people getting hurt. If you do the latter, you are showing that part of your business model is the use by untrained people which shows that you know or should have known it would expose them to injury. If you actively discourage use by untrained people, then you have a case that it was the responsibility of the person getting hurt for not following the warnings.

The only idea I could offer you is either to make sure it says "for divers only," or to provide some depth limit for non-trained users and clearly post it with additional disclosures (you need an attorney to help you out.) The depth of 40' won't pass the smell test if you try to claim that untrained users should have known it wasn't safe and there was no specific warning.

 

[archer1960]

...

You are correct on most of your points - no argument there, but I will address #3. "Adventure Gear" is available for purchase, but virtually every industry has safeguards against non-licensed people getting hurt. If nothing else, it's bad for the business. No scuba shop will fill a tank of a non-licensed diver. No skydiving operation will take onboard an unlicensed skydiver. Sure people can go and get their own compressor or airplane and hurt themselves, but that is not that easy. There are industry-wide safeguards and for a good reason.

...

This isn't true. My shop will fill the tank of anybody who walks in if the tank is within its inspection and testing requirements. It's not their lookout if you misuse your own tank, and lots of people use SCUBA tanks for things other than SCUBA However, they won't rent you a tank, or take you out on a group dive without showing your card.