Loose rules in Fort Lauderdale, FL

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We trust lot's of manufacturers claims but not all claims are necessary true. Sometimes they do not know themselves (I just got a recall notice on my 2004 Outback which was fine for 12 years but now it turns out the airbag can kill the passenger), sometimes they pretend they do not know (as in the Merck/Vioxx scandal) but normally we trust, until the sh@t hits the fan. Maybe in the case of oxygen analyzers it will never happen, and I certainly hope so. But most of you folks do not know how the electrochemical sensor in the O2 analyzer works, and this is truly blessing in ignorance. However, it is probably true that safety margins for O2 exposure are already tilted the way it does not matter how accurate your analyzer is and I already backed off my "borderline safety" statement.
@uncfnp If I go to Bonaire and get unlimited Nitrox, I'll spend 4-5 hrs underwater daily, so I'd keep the 1.4 limit. For a single dive a day, maybe I'll go for 1.6.

For someone who is so concerned about the risks from EAN caused by analyzers, spouting dangerous crap like doing 4-5 hours a day at a PO2 of 1.4 is mind blowing. I think you need to ask whoever taught you nitrox for a refund.

Daily limits are important too.
 
For someone who is so concerned about the risks from EAN caused by analyzers, spouting dangerous crap like doing 4-5 hours a day at a PO2 of 1.4 is mind blowing. I think you need to ask whoever taught you nitrox for a refund.

Daily limits are important too.
For those who just got out of the cave: keeping the 1.4 limit does not mean this limit is reached on every dive. It means that none of the dives exceeds 1.4.
 
...viz sticker placed without an even cursory inspection and that only beacuse he charged for work not done. That is a rules violation in my book.

That is not just a rules violation, it's fraud. The "inspector" has defrauded the customer who is paying for a visual inspection.
 
Maybe it "Looked Good" to him. This wast Clark from Superman's scuba was it?

Visuals are an industry requirement however I still like to pull the valve and look inside my tanks once a year.
 
And whose rules were being broken?
Certification agencies make rules that must be followed by instructors for training dives. Other than that, each dive op is free to make up any (or no) rules they desire. Although some places do have some odd government rules.

Who thinks there is such a thing as "standard scuba rules"?
I'm a little late to the party, but I'm going to field this one.

When you sit on the witness stand, being confronted by the lawyer hired by the wife of the fat guy who died on your boat, with the experts on both sides waiting to devour you, the lawyer will ask something like " What are the boat's rules for diving with a buddy?" And you fire back with "Giffenk said we don't need no stupid rules! Who the hell do you think you are, the Houston Scuba Police Department?" and you know the experts are sitting right there. So his next question will be "Do you know what the industry standard is for diving with a buddy?" and the experts are giving you the hairy eyeball. Now, you can continue to be defiant and say "Screw you, there are no rules!" or you can mumble "Yes, you must dive with a buddy unless you are a properly certified and equipped solo diver...." and you can see the outcome.

The beauty of this is that it's your insurance company paying the bills here. Oh, unless you went against the terms and conditions of your policy, in which case they will cast you free to drift aimlessly in the wind, unless you have deep pockets, in which case you might as well just sign them over to the grieving widow.

So, no, there are no scuba rules nor are there any scuba police. Any operator stupid enough to believe this (and there are some) will figure it out during their day in court.

Any further questions?
 
are vip stickers a north america thing? i dive in the caribbean and have never seen one on a tank. on a recent dive trip to bonaire i did notice that the dive op took a black sharpie and circled some numbers stamped into the tanks - hydro dates? (about the only thing i know about tanks is that you get full ones from that pile and should put your empty one over there)
VIP stickers (as well as nitrox wraps) are a USA thing. I owned way over 100 cylinders and vipped every one of them every year. I kept (keep) meticulous records and every cylinder is completely traceable to every fill, every use including depth and bottom time, every neck o-ring change, and every valve rebuild. I don't have a single sticker on any cylinder unless it is an "O2 only" use 40 or has white duct tape on it denoting the MOD.
 
Yeah, right. This is in ideal conditions when you stuck the thing into the air and your results do not depend on the gas flow. And how do you know that your scale is not off? You "calibrate" the analyzer on air before you check your Nitrox tank but you have no idea what it's gonna show you when you run 100% oxygen, maybe the analyzer will show you 85% or 110%. That's why you can't calibrate by a using a single standard, you need 2 at least. When you measure pH you always run at least 2 standard buffers for calibration, not just one. Same thing here.

Sure I am. I've been taught to avoid exceeding PPO 1.4 if possible.

So what do you do? Stay under 13' on every dive because your tank might contain 100% and you don't trust any analyzer? I guess you could take a sample from each tank and send it off for lab analysis.


Test with the shop's analyzer, then test with your own. If the results between the two differ then you figure out where the problem is. If there isn't a difference in the results, I'm plenty happy trusting that confirmed result. If you have an analyzer with multipoint calibration like a cootwo that also checks CO then so much the better.
 
......spouting dangerous crap like doing 4-5 hours a day at a PO2 of 1.4 is mind blowing. I think you need to ask whoever taught you nitrox for a refund.

Ken, I trust you know your stuff, but this kind of comment always makes me cringe a bit. To truly master technical concepts, most adults need several components: Good instruction, repetition, review, and so good experience. Opportunities to teach back these concepts really improve retention too. My point is.. calling out an instructor because a former student goes off the reservation seems a bit harsh.

I don't know the poster in question, or said instructor. Just my point of view.
 
For a single dive a day, maybe I'll go for 1.6.

Now you're just trolling. That statement completely contradicts everything you've said in this thread.

To go back and clear up everything you've said in this thread... As you should know, nitrox is defined as a gas mix containing O2 greater than 21%. So to make a broad statement that nitrox at 100' is borderline unsafe due to the increased PPO2 is ridiculous. Someone could dive 22% to 100' and they would be diving nitrox and have virtually zero chance of CNS toxicity. And, IMO, for a hard bottom 34% would be perfectly acceptable even with a small error in analyzing since your max PPO2 would be 1.37 ata. Regardless, the analyzer should be checked against a known mix, like air to ensure its accuracy. Checking with two analyzers virtually eliminates the chance of a major error.

Your arguments defy everything that is taught in any EANx course regarding MOD standards, PPO2 and analyzing a mix. It does a disservice here in the Basic Scuba Discussion since one who is not EANx certified, but considering it, could be led to believe Nitrox use per standards are dangerous. You said you would dive to a limit of PPO2 1.6 ata. This is irresponsible information. As anyone who has learned from the nitrox course 1.6 is only ok as a contingency or maybe a resting decompression, not for planning a dive. The latter point being beyond the scope of the nitrox course.

Given your replies, my guess is you've only ever had available banked mixes and not the option of partial pressure blending so you're simply not aware that there are mixes available other than 32 or 36%. This based on the fact you weren't aware that shops carry 100% O2.

Now, if we want to make a sound argument or warning regarding the use of enriched air at ~100' it would be that it is the depth that one may start to begin to be under the affects of narcosis and so when planning a dive they should take that into consideration and be prepared to ascend to a depth where it no longer affects them. Diving nitrox is not a solution to narcosis. Furthermore, a diver needs to be aware of their total oxygen exposure over a period of time.

Now, I will say this and I don't know how other instructors teach the EANx course, but my cave instructor who taught me the course was very adamant about not pushing limits. In other words, one should use good judgement and if you're doing repetitive diving and or doing a dive where pushing PPO2 limits provides little benefit, why bother. Perhaps that's setting the stage for the technical diving mindset. Nevertheless, I think it's good advice and if that's what you meant, than you did a poor job of articulating that here.
 
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You tell me...
This thread is getting sidetracked with a lot of competing posts, but really there is one topic that I want to clarify.

Tarponchik, you do realize that dive shops have 100% oxygen (well maybe 99.5%). That it comes from gas suppliers, that there are various grades, and that it is meticulously checked and verified because it needs to be at certain quality in order to be used by welders, hospitals, etc?

Also, that some dive shops mix the 100% O2 with air in order to create a combination of nitrox from 21% - 100%?

Some of your posts just seem to be all over the place, I just want to confirm this fundamental fact and then take things step by step.
 
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