Give up my primary regulator???

[claymore]

Another issue I have seen is that divers using Air II/Alternate airsource do not change to a longer hose than the one that came with the reg set, generally 26-30". This leangth is to short to comfortably do an air share, both divers are in a very confined space created by the length of the donated hose.

 

[MichaelMc]

I tried to find a regulator package configured with an octo to recall their hose length. Most packages I found were ’streamlined open water sets’, 40” primary and 22” backup, with bungee provided, from DiveGearExpress and Diverightinscuba. Or full on long hose, doubles, or sidemount. I found the lack of ‘standard’ octo packages at these sites enlightening. Sure they offer some separate octos with 36” hoses, but the open water packages with two seconds were 40”/22”.

Leisurepro does not have packages that I see. Others had octo packages but were not telling the hose lengths.

Edit: Well, Diverightinscuba's Jacket BC + reg packages seem to come with octos, but the reg only packages seem to be 40"/22", not octo packages. A big sign of that is the prevalence of bungee necklaces in the overview pictures. Dive Gear Packages - Regulator kits, BCD systems, and technical dive packages are just some of the items we offer here. - Dive Right in Scuba

 

[kafkaland]

When you dive a standard rec rig, with the Octo on a holder in the triangle, and see the OOA monster coming at you, eyes wide open, do you present the Octo like you would in a primary-donate S-drill, or would you wait to let him grab it from you, as I was taught in my OW course? My instinct would be to present it to have more control over the situation and also project a "We got this - I'm ready to help" message. Is there a reason why one would hold off and let the OOA diver grab the reg, and possibly the wrong one, instead?

 

[tbone1004]

@kafkaland BSAC seems to think there is a reason for it, perhaps @Edward3c can enlighten us

personally I see no justification from anything take vs donate, but that's just me

 

[KenGordon]

When you dive a standard rec rig, with the Octo on a holder in the triangle, and see the OOA monster coming at you, eyes wide open, do you present the Octo like you would in a primary-donate S-drill, or would you wait to let him grab it from you, as I was taught in my OW course? My instinct would be to present it to have more control over the situation and also project a "We got this - I'm ready to help" message. Is there a reason why one would hold off and let the OOA diver grab the reg, and possibly the wrong one, instead?

In BSAC we teach the OOA diver take the octopus regulator as the other dive would otherwise have to notice what is happening, comprehend it and act. We do not tell divers never to actively donate if they notice early enough.

 

[KenGordon]

This is precisely the reason for using a necklace octopus and donating your primary. There is no rubber holder gripping the mouthpiece, You know where it is at all times. If it ever leaked or freeflowed you would know immediately. It won't come loose and drag in the sand. It takes a second or two to get it into your mouth. It's such a simple solution yet so many won't even consider the option because it's not the way they were taught.

Yay! Ignore your training, what is the worst that could happen?

 

[KenGordon]

I think Bob makes a good point, actually several good points.

1. I do not see many shops (nor, frankly, many instructors) doing a particularly good job of actively considering new approaches to procedures / techniques / configurations, etc. They do a better job of promoting new gear, whether it represents an advance in utility or performance, or not. They wait for, and even then are too often dragged kicking and screaming into, changes in agency training standards. There are exceptions, absolutely. But, those are just that - exceptional, and relatively uncommon, situations. And (understandably from a financial perspective, I admit) shops not infrequently hire younger, less experienced (and less expensive) divers as retail staff, and these are the individuals least likely to understand the significance and substance of changes. They simply don't have the length and breadth of experience to recognize genuine and positive change, and distinguish substantive evolution from new glitz.

2. Divers really have VERY limited resources available to them after certification for continued growth and development, except possibly if they pursue additional training (and even then, there is no guarantee of quality). SB, and similar sites, are actually one of the few resources widely available to divers. And, I know far too many instructors and shop owners who openly proclaim that they discourage their students / customers from going on SB, because 'there's too much politics'. I don't know what 'politics' they are talking about. Divergent - and strongly held, in some cases - opinions? Yes. Politics? Not really. Actually, what I suspect those instructors and owners are worried about is that their students / customers might pick up new ideas and begin to question some of the things that their instructor / shop has told them, and gear they have sold them.

So, the dive community very much needs venues like SB, in order to see this 'stuff' being discussed (and participate in those discussions), because divers are not going to get it from the majority of shops and instructors out there.

I say this as a person who supports local dive shops, who encourages divers to use local shops, and who staffs / instructs through a local shop. I am definitely not a LDS 'basher'. But, I sincerely believe that many shops (including my own) could be doing a MUCH BETTER JOB than they are doing.

You talk like SB is full of the one truth. In fact it is largely full of nonsense. How is a random, recently trained diver to tell the difference between good advice and some hobby horse?

On the one hand they can talk in person to an instructor in the shop that trained them, on the other they can listen to a bunch of people who do not even use their real names? Duh! For extra points they can try to argue that whatever they were told on SB is correct against some 'seen it all' shop person.

Even in the case that the advice given is good and the instructor genuinely wrong it is hard to get past the fact that most new divers think their instructor is good. A sort of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Yay! Ignore your training, what is the worst that could happen?

You might learn something new?

 

[KenGordon]

You might learn something new?

So it is ok to ignore how you were trained and take the advice of a stranger who owes you no duty, may be completely unqualified to teach and may be advocating a system not actually taught by any official agency.

All while not knowing enough to tell if you are being fed rubbish or not.

Sometime some of the piss take threads on here are just as convincing as the real ones.

 

[chrisch]

When you dive a standard rec rig, with the Octo on a holder in the triangle, and see the OOA monster coming at you, eyes wide open, do you present the Octo like you would in a primary-donate S-drill, or would you wait to let him grab it from you, as I was taught in my OW course? My instinct would be to present it to have more control over the situation and also project a "We got this - I'm ready to help" message. Is there a reason why one would hold off and let the OOA diver grab the reg, and possibly the wrong one, instead?

@kafkaland BSAC seems to think there is a reason for it, perhaps @Edward3c can enlighten us

personally I see no justification from anything take vs donate, but that's just me

On the BSAC instructor foundation course we were taught to "present" the octo to the student. You turn your body and show clearly where the octo is and invite the student to take it from you. I think the idea is that the student - if s/he were for real out of gas - would have the confidence and knowledge to take and commence breathing from the AAS of their buddy. In the PADI training (to dive) we were taught to demonstrate the OOG signal and await the regulator.

In the real world outside of training anything can happen. I personally have only ever experienced an OOG situation once. My buddy showed me a SPG with zero as the pressure. She waited until I had passed her the octo and we ascended. She was very calm and unbothered by the incident. I was much much less comfortable. As it turns out her drysuit feed had stuck open and more or less drained the tank. When we got to 30m their wasn't enough pressure left to breathe. Topside there was still enough to inflate the BC.

Based on that I think it is vitally important that all divers from all agencies are prepared to "give up" or to actively donate the AAS. It is critical that the buddy quickly and effectively provides the gas source to the distressed diver or allows the distressed diver to take a functional gas source.

The BSAC system has merit in that the divers trained in this system are taught to take a gas source. It is somewhat flawed in that it does not reinforce the principle that the AAS can be (and should be) actively given when it is clear that this is the best course of action. During our instructor training there was much debate about this and the view (of my fellow instructor trainees) was that you would "donate" if doing it for real.

About the same time as doing my BSAC instructor course I also started cave diving. My "out of gas buddy" and I had decided to spend our lives together and she was very keen to explore the underwater caves. We both changed our equipment to the long hose twin tank rig that is needed for caves. We both trained and practised primary donate. At the time the BSAC did not allow primary donate to be taught. (Under review now I think). Neither of us could teach the method we both used for all our diving outside of teaching. Neither of us now teach.

The primary donate issue (and long hose primary) has been an on going argument in the BSAC for many years. My view is that it stems from the fact that a lot of the better, more experienced divers in BSAC moved to rebreathers. Primary take is problematical if you have a new diver grabbing at the loop. Therefore the "show the octo" (in this case the OC bailout) makes a great deal of sense when a rebreather diver is matched with a newish OC diver. Personally I believe that when dealing with new divers or in training you should have the same equipment as the buddy. I do not agree with buddying up a rebreather diver and someone the equivalent of a PADI AOW with 30 dives. But that's just me.

Primary donate is a technique that has been driven by long hose rigs and by the cave diving community. The early years of DIR and the unpleasant outpourings of some folk in that niche did little to promote well balanced debate about the matter. Thankfully that is behind us. Primary take (which is taught to no one) is a real issue and in my view something missing from basic training (all agencies). Hopefully by the time divers have got to rebreather level there is enough training to ensure that no one floods the loop and drowns both parties. Basic open circuit training can reinforce this and that - I believe - is the goal of the BSAC procedure. Whether in practice enough discussion accompanies the procedure depends on the individual instructor. Which is the perennial subject here and every other scuba forum - get a good instructor. As Ken points out above most new divers think their instructor is "good" even if they are not