Arrogance and humility among divers

[stuartv]

Exactly how I understood it. Don't come to me to take a class until you don't need it, because I am not competent enough to teach it to you in the allotted time. Make sure you pay me well for all the instruction you got on your own.

Fortunately, the class was actually extremely inexpensive. I think it was $100 and that covered having him meet me at a lake 2.5 hours away (and all his other expenses) and spend a day first verifying my experience (which he already knew from prior conversations), covering all the book material to make sure I understood it, and then observing me on some dives to verify that I had the required skills down. All one on one. Plus it covered the course book, the card fee, etc.. My only other expense was my travel and entry fee to the dive park where we met.

I thought it was a bargain, really, for that much of his time and the result of a card that will let me dive solo anywhere that allows solo diving (including places that don't accept PADI Self-Reliant).

 

[stuartv]

Exactly how I understood it. Don't come to me to take a class until you don't need it, because I am not competent enough to teach it to you in the allotted time. Make sure you pay me well for all the instruction you got on your own.

As a side note, I am a little surprised.

On the one hand, you seem to pretty clearly imply that you are okay with teaching someone potentially brand new (to them) skills that are required in order to dive solo safely and then turning them loose to do so. After how many dives?

On the other hand, in other posts, you have made it clear that you feel like it is important for their safety that new tech divers not be turned loose to dive to 150', using 100% O2, with unlimited deco allowed - even though they would be required to be diving with a buddy. Your statements have seemed to make it clear that you feel like, for their safety, new tech divers need to take a smaller first step, where they are limited to 130'/40m, a max of 50% O2, and a max of 10 minutes of deco obligation.

I defer to your experience and judgment as an instructor. But, without this insight shared from someone like yourself, I would have felt better about turning someone loose with newly learned skills and Tec 45 limitations than I would about turning someone loose to dive solo with newly learned skills. At least the new tech diver will have a buddy there to help them if they start to make a mistake. I guess it's a good thing for all involved that I'm not a Solo OR a Tech instructor...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Exactly how I understood it. Don't come to me to take a class until you don't need it, because I am not competent enough to teach it to you in the allotted time. Make sure you pay me well for all the instruction you got on your own.

I think what he's saying is verifying what many in here and other similar threads have said ... that they didn't take the class to learn anything, but for a c-card that provides them access to dives they want to do. If the expectation is that you're taking the class simply for the c-card, then it's reasonable to expect the student to already know the skills prior to taking the class, and only using the class to demonstrate that they're competent to use them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

To BEGIN the PADI self-reliant diver course, the diver must be at least 18 years old, have logged at least 100 dives, and demonstrate the skills expected of someone with that experience. That is more than is required of most beginning tech courses--significantly more, in fact. It is more than is required to begin most cave diving courses.

The skills that are required for the course are relatively modest. If I couldn't teach them in the expected time period, I would be embarrassed. If it took me a month, I would hang up my instructor credentials forever.

 

[boulderjohn]

On the other hand, in other posts, you have made it clear that you feel like it is important for their safety that new tech divers not be turned loose to dive to 150', using 100% O2, with unlimited deco allowed - even though they would be required to be diving with a buddy. Your statements have seemed to make it clear that you feel like, for their safety, new tech divers need to take a smaller first step, where they are limited to 130'/40m, a max of 50% O2, and a max of 10 minutes of deco obligation.

When did I say that?

If I certify a diver to dive to 150 feet using pure oxygen as a deco gas, then it means I am confident that they can dive to 150 feet using pure oxygen as a deco gas. I am happy to have them do that. Last winter I certified two people for full trimix. A couple weeks later the three of us dived as a team on a couple dives to depths around 270 feet. I did not have an iota of concern that they would be able to do what was necessary, even in an emergency. If I had had such a concern, they would not have been certified.

I have this funny sense that as an instructor, my job is to instruct. last weekend I had a situation where I had a brand new Tec 40 student who already looks like he is ready for the trimix class. I told him I felt like I was cheating him because I had so little to teach him, both in the water and in the academic sessions. It is certainly a luxury to have students come to me without any need for me to teach them anything, but it is not what I expect.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think what he's saying is verifying what many in here and other similar threads have said ... that they didn't take the class to learn anything, but for a c-card that provides them access to dives they want to do. If the expectation is that you're taking the class simply for the c-card, then it's reasonable to expect the student to already know the skills prior to taking the class, and only using the class to demonstrate that they're competent to use them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

To be honest, I would indeed expect most students taking the self-reliant class to come into the class with the necessary skills intact because they aren't all that hard. I would not require that they have the skills ahead of time, though, and if they came in without them, I would not have any concerns about being able to teach them. I find the idea that it will take you a month to teach someone how to switch to a second air source simply amazing.

 

[Umuntu]

As a general rule, if reading someone's post upsets you or makes you angry, just put them on ignore.

I just discovered this feature ... absolutely brilliant !

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

To be honest, I would indeed expect most students taking the self-reliant class to come into the class with the necessary skills intact because they aren't all that hard. I would not require that they have the skills ahead of time, though, and if they came in without them, I would not have any concerns about being able to teach them. I find the idea that it will take you a month to teach someone how to switch to a second air source simply amazing.

But you're probably not typical of the instructors who teach this class ... particularly given that you also teach tech classes, which require more emphasis on mindset than the typical recreational class. I'd put a solo class as somewhere in between, in that I think the most valuable part of the class could well be the mental approach to the dive rather than the skills that are usually emphasized. I don't know how anyone could justify taking a month to teach a solo class, but I would say that there's way more to the class than simply training someone to switch to a second air source. FWIW, that particular skill doesn't even need a class ... a dive with a competent mentor should suffice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[stuartv]

I don't know how anyone could justify taking a month to teach a solo class

I threw out "take a month" as hyperbole intended to illustrate a situation of an instructor who wants a student to have sufficient real-world experience with a newly-learned skill before that instructor certifies the student. Example: Teach them how to use a second air source and then wait for them to have a decent number of real-world dives while carrying and practicing with their second air source before certifying them. That could easily take a month or more.

When I first met with the instructor whom I eventually took my Solo class from, I really appreciated the seriousness with which he takes solo diving and his desire to not send me out with any skill that is required for safe solo diving as a skill that I had just learned - no matter how easy it was to pick up quickly and demonstrate with proficiency. I think that a skill newly learned is not a skill that will come easily and automatically to hand when the fit really hits the shan.

The thread where dumpsterDiver blew out his first stage was pretty recent. If he had just learned in a class the weekend before about how to carry a pony and how to use it, would he have managed the switch to his pony so well? Would he have been a little more likely to fumble something and then panic? I am not a Solo instructor, so I don't have to face this decision. Which is good, because I definitely don't feel right now like I am such a great instructor that I could teach someone that skill in a weekend and have complete confidence that they could easily and safely manage an emergency, like dD had, the very next weekend - no matter how proficiently they did it in my class. I would feel much better about certifying someone that had been diving with a pony for a long time and practiced switching to it many more times than just what they might do in one day or weekend. Hopefully, I will get more experience and feel better about my ability to teach something like that in the future. Or, maybe I will end up just like the crusty old tech diver that I took the Solo class from and require Solo candidates to have all the skills AND a decent amount of real-world experience with those skills before I would certify them.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I can't really say definitively how long it should take ... we all have differently shaped learning curves, after all. I know some people who you can show something to who will go out and do it almost reflexively right away. Others need multiple attempts to get it right the first time, and lots of practice to become proficient at it. Something like a regulator switch shouldn't be that difficult, since we all learned how to accept a safe second from our dive buddy during our OW class, and hopefully practiced the skill somewhat thereafter.

I took my initial sidemount instruction in a cave. Now, granted I was already cave certified, and I had plenty of practice managing multiple regulators as a tech diver before I took the sidemount class. But it would've been impossible if my instructor had insisted that I become proficient with diving sidemount prior to taking the class.

I get that solo diving is a bit unique, in that you won't have someone there to cover your mistakes if you should make them. But I just don't think that managing a second regulator is all that difficult. For most folks I think a bit of dryland practice and a dive with a handful of repetitions should get you to the point where you can manage it in an emergency.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)