OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[TMHeimer]

FFS the world does not actually revolve about liability. Sometimes people design systems to actually work. Like “are they questionable,if so get them to see a doctor, how to achieve that?, ask for a signature from the doctor”.

Mildly disagree. I think it's ALL about liability. I don't seem to need a form when I do 98% of my diving solo from shore. Guess nobody cares. Hey, maybe we should get the government involved so we'd be required to keep a signed form with us at all times diving--like a SALT WATER fishing license...…..

 

[KenGordon]

Mildly disagree. I think it's ALL about liability. I don't seem to need a form when I do 98% of my diving solo from shore. Guess nobody cares. Hey, maybe we should get the government involved so we'd be required to keep a signed form with us at all times diving--like a SALT WATER fishing license...…..

We have forms like this in the U.K. Unlike the US, here it is extremely difficult to get sued over stuff like accidentally killing a student. We still have the forms (even if not of paper) We have them because it is in everyone’s interest that people don’t get hurt diving. Part of that is people understanding what might be a problem (in wide and general terms) and then checking it out with a competent doctor if necessary.

As a club we require a declaration annually. You can go solo shore diving, or get on a shuttle boat without such a declaration, just like you can without taking a course simply by buying kit. You can’t dive with our club in any of those cases.

In some parts of Europe, For example Spain or Malta (maybe France) you need to have filled out this form (hence the OPs question). In Malta the6 used to actually insist you saw a doctor, now the form is enough (obviously endorsed if a questionable condition exists).

It is in the interests of students not to spend time and effort on a sport which they might not be able to really participate in, it is in the interest of clubs not to waste effort on those people, it is in the interests of buddies not to have to rescue someone, it in the interest of society as a whole not to have to support injured people.

Literally nothing of this is to do with liability.

With shops selling training there is a slightly different case. In the U.K. they have to operate under various regulations. Part of those regulations is taking due care that the student is fit and following a procedure to do so. Failing to have and follow such a procedure is going to result action being taken. If a student dies then those procedures come under scrutiny.

The procedures have to be appropriate and proportional to the risk. Young (prospective profession) footballers get full cardiac examinations before being trained. For liability? Were clubs being sued to distruction? Or because having children die is a bad idea?

Sometimes people are doing the right thing because it is the right thing.

 

[BlueTrin]

About 7 years ago I wanted to learn diving in thailand and told in good faith that I was asthmatic. The instructor told me that he would not take me unless I had a medical certificate but they had missed my email when I had mentioned this prior to travelling.

I was a bit pissed off as I could have gotten the medical certificate prior to fly but they had missed that but in my email.

The worst part is that he then told me to go to see a Thai doctor. I went and the doctor said it was ok. He then decided to not take me anyway because he didn’t trust the doctor in the first place.

I was really annoyed as I had paid now for a medical certificate from this Thai doctor.

This left me such a bad taste that I didn’t decide to go diving until last summer when I had a gardening leave. The doctors from the diving chamber cleared me with no issues ...

Could have started diving almost a decade ago but late is better than never

Plenty of people said it already, but just book an appointment with a doctor specialised in diving. You’ll know what’s his recommendation, then I would recommend you to follow his advice but in the end ... it’s up to you.

 

[doctormike]

The procedures have to be appropriate and proportional to the risk. Young (prospective profession) footballers get full cardiac examinations before being trained. For liability? Were clubs being sued to distruction? Or because having children die is a bad idea?

Sometimes people are doing the right thing because it is the right thing.

Absolutely, but I don't think that the OP was asking about the sort of forms that UK dive clubs use, or commercial dive op requirements around the world under different legal systems. I think that the questions about the form that PADI required before a class.

If this was just about safety and not about liability, then why will every instructor accept my signature on a form? I'm an ENT doc, I'm absolutely not qualified to clear someone for diving with heart disease, asthma, diabetes, etc... Has anyone ever encountered a situation where an instructor gets a form with a "yes" box checked, looks at the signature and then decides to vet that doctor to see if he or she is qualified? I mean, I guess that BlueTrin's story about the Thai doctor is sort of like that, but that sounds like just one person's decision, and it wasn't a PADI training issue.

AFAIK, that doctor's signature is a binary thing - you have it or you don't. If this was about safety and not liability, the agencies would have a list of doctors who were certified to be able to clear people for diving. And even then, you might need different subspecialty clearances if you had more than one problem. Coronary stents and vocal cord paralysis? What kid of doctor would be able to sign off on someone with both of those things?

The doctor's signature is a way of transferring some degree of liability away from the instructor (to the doctor) in a training environment. That doesn't mean that medical evaluation and a frank discussion of the risks involved with diving for any given condition isn't crucial - see the excellent explanation of that by @rsingler upthread. But the agencies and instructor's insistence on a docs signature on the form isn't necessarily for that.

 

[caruso]

Again, if you are referring to me - whether I disclose my history with syncope (or liver failure, or on an antidepressant or any other medical misadventures I've had in my life) or not doesn't affect the fact that it has been cleared as safe. I disclose as a courtesy to people so they know a) that I am ready and willing to call the dive for myself if I have any symptoms.

Yes, you've mentioned that about a gazillion times already. Along with just about everything you say in every "new" posts.

Just out of curiosity I ran your posts through a "repetitive phrase finder and eliminator program" and when it was done there was only one paragraph left.

 

[JackD342]

This is not a one dimensional procedure. With regional and agency variations to how it is accomplished, the goal is to encourage and/or enforce a virtuous cycle of behavior and decisions.

If I do the right thing, I will make things safer, which will reduce liability, which encourages doing the right thing, which makes things safer, which...

When used as intended by all parties, the Medical Statement gets that ball rolling. It is not “just for safety” and it is not “only about liability.”
No, it is not foolproof or immune from someone gaming the system. But focusing only on those aspects makes perfection a barrier to “pretty good.”

 

[BlueTrin]

Absolutely, but I don't think that the OP was asking about the sort of forms that UK dive clubs use, or commercial dive op requirements around the world under different legal systems. I think that the questions about the form that PADI required before a class.

If this was just about safety and not about liability, then why will every instructor accept my signature on a form? I'm an ENT doc, I'm absolutely not qualified to clear someone for diving with heart disease, asthma, diabetes, etc... Has anyone ever encountered a situation where an instructor gets a form with a "yes" box checked, looks at the signature and then decides to vet that doctor to see if he or she is qualified? I mean, I guess that BlueTrin's story about the Thai doctor is sort of like that, but that sounds like just one person's decision, and it wasn't a PADI training issue.

AFAIK, that doctor's signature is a binary thing - you have it or you don't. If this was about safety and not liability, the agencies would have a list of doctors who were certified to be able to clear people for diving. And even then, you might need different subspecialty clearances if you had more than one problem. Coronary stents and vocal cord paralysis? What kid of doctor would be able to sign off on someone with both of those things?

The doctor's signature is a way of transferring some degree of liability away from the instructor (to the doctor) in a training environment. That doesn't mean that medical evaluation and a frank discussion of the risks involved with diving for any given condition isn't crucial - see the excellent explanation of that by @rsingler upthread. But the agencies and instructor's insistence on a docs signature on the form isn't necessarily for that.

About my story, I totally agree that I should be signed off by a doctor with expertise about diving. I was just annoyed that the diving shop missed the bit in my email where I told them about my asthma and told me that I was good to go.

I found the instructor a bit stupid to ask me a doctor signature, if he would discard it anyway if it was positive.

We ended up having a lovely holiday anyway, it’s just that it changed out plans at the last minute.

I totally agree with you that PADI should require a physician signature specialised in diving or not require a signature. I think some GPS may either refuse to sign because they do not know or, even worse, sign off without knowing if the person can dive.

 

[tridacna]

This left me such a bad taste that I didn’t decide to go diving until last summer when I had a gardening leave.

What is a “gardening leave”?

 

[BlueTrin]

What is a “gardening leave”?

In Europe you often get in the contract 1 to 3 months notice period if your employer or yourself decide to quit your job.

In some jobs you do the three months at home not working because you work on confidential projects so the company prefers you to not be at the office once you have done your handover.

Basically it is a three months paid holiday where you are supposed to be available at short notice should the company need you.

 

[KenGordon]

Absolutely, but I don't think that the OP was asking about the sort of forms that UK dive clubs use, or commercial dive op requirements around the world under different legal systems. I think that the questions about the form that PADI required before a class.

If this was just about safety and not about liability, then why will every instructor accept my signature on a form? I'm an ENT doc, I'm absolutely not qualified to clear someone for diving with heart disease, asthma, diabetes, etc... Has anyone ever encountered a situation where an instructor gets a form with a "yes" box checked, looks at the signature and then decides to vet that doctor to see if he or she is qualified? I mean, I guess that BlueTrin's story about the Thai doctor is sort of like that, but that sounds like just one person's decision, and it wasn't a PADI training issue.

AFAIK, that doctor's signature is a binary thing - you have it or you don't. If this was about safety and not liability, the agencies would have a list of doctors who were certified to be able to clear people for diving. And even then, you might need different subspecialty clearances if you had more than one problem. Coronary stents and vocal cord paralysis? What kid of doctor would be able to sign off on someone with both of those things?

The doctor's signature is a way of transferring some degree of liability away from the instructor (to the doctor) in a training environment. That doesn't mean that medical evaluation and a frank discussion of the risks involved with diving for any given condition isn't crucial - see the excellent explanation of that by @rsingler upthread. But the agencies and instructor's insistence on a docs signature on the form isn't necessarily for that.

She was actually asking why she needed an actual doctor’s signature

Here's the thing: when I took my OWD, I needed a medical examination and a doctor's certificate before the dive shop would take me.

that is not to do with PADI but with the law in Spain where she was learning.

Meanwhile, I can’t take your signature on a student’s, or even a qualified diver’s medical, as you are not on the list of competent medical referees. UKDMC