NSS-CDS Full Cave: The Live-Blog

[michael-fisch]

If your hands are messed up from pulling, you probably didn't listen to your instructor who told you to pull from outstreached arm to your shoulder. Pulling further makes you rotate your hand which scrapes off skin. Untill I learned to listen to what my instructor had told me, my fingertips were also a bloody mess.

Join the gang, everybody just starting out thinks that they can pull further than what the instructor told them and instructors regard this as a learning experience. It's been 21 years for me and I still haven't forgotten.

But I already warned you in post #4 of this thread.

Michael

 

[rddvet]

If you can't make it to a navigational decision, how do you learn complex navigation? I once had a student that couldn't make it to the lips on jacked up lp108's. He couldn't make it to the first jump in peacock. If comfort level isn't there, and you can't make it to do a traverse or circuit, how do we teach complex navigation?

You don't. You fail them and they pass to the level they're able to complete, then go off and start getting comfortable enough to actually dive further. In the case of this thread, is taking a student who just learned how to dive bm during your class and start mixing up tanks on them to get them further? Sounds like extra task loading and stress for an already stressed student. Reading her posts, it's obvious she's not comfortable in the overhead environment, so why push it to go even further. Work on the skills you can and then either set them free to learn, or even better, mentor them. I know my best instructors were ones that would take time to dive and mentor their students rather than pushing them through the class.

It's not about skills only, it's about being comfortable enough in the OH to think clearly and make smart decisions when they need to be made. Until someone is somewhat comfortable in the environment, they can't be relied on to actually respond when needed.

I'm not preaching to you Pete, since I'm sure you're knowledge of all of this is far greater than mine. There seems to be a trend of red flags in these posts which make me think adding more and more problems isn't the smartest idea. I've always heard great things about Reggie, so I'm surprised by a little bit of the stuff I've read. But it's also the student's side of the class which may look completely different from an instructor's view.

 

[Schwob]

Reading her posts, it's obvious she's not comfortable in the overhead environment,

...
I am 100% cave inexperienced and not qualified to judge anything here. I gather all of those doing the judging are quite experienced and know what you talk about. I find this thread, all of it to be very interesting. It’s a high value thread. I really like @dewdropsonrosa ’s open heart not holding back narration. I like the advise pouring in. I like the discussion. Thanks all.

I learn that open hearted narration invites all that, including all the judging. I dare to ask: What is up with all that judging?

Is that just natural part of the process in the cave community to arrive at the best you can be at a diver... and one better gets used to it if wanting to go there?

I mean she is with a qualified, experienced, highly regarded instructor who watches her every move - is she not? She reports here open hearted, not a shred of macho in her words, feelings out in the open...which allows valuable insight... but not as much as the instructor watching her every move and having all those conversations with her would have. ... or?

Is Reggie actually doing this wrong? Is he really pushing the student too hard into too much too soon? That is not the impression I got from the narration at all ... but I don’t know, reading between the lines of some of the comments, is that the impression I should be getting? I mean this is highly qualified people doing the talking here, it is not someone with 37 dives or so giving advice here.

Or should I just brush this aside as the typical Internet forum thing of competing display of expertise nevertheless and continue to think, as the narration itself leads me to, that this is good, controlled training in progress during which also (naturally) certain boundaries, physical and psychological will be discovered and outlined and dealt with appropriately?

 

[PfcAJ]

Is Reggie actually doing this wrong

Yes.

 

[Schwob]

Yes.

Thanks. Food for thought...

 

[bamafan]

Why bother working on your basic skills such as getting comfortable in the water and reading the cave? Just go find a different shop / instructor and it is nothing that money can't solve. There are always rebreathers and scooters to get students to the Hill 400 jump so that they can start working on their full cave class.

 

[kensuf]

Speed kills, but slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Crushing your first third quickly is very common. At the very start of a cave many people feel rushed, they may swim faster than they should, their breathing rate is elevated, carbon dioxide builds up, and tunnel vision sets in.

To counteract this, I tell all of my students that when they tie into the gold line I want them to stop and take 3-5 slow deep breaths. This allows them to get their breathing under control and relax, they then slow down, which makes the entire dive go smoother and they use less gas.

I also practice what I preach. I begin almost every dive with a brief pause that lasts for up to a minute or two. It will make everything else go smooth, and smooth really is faster.

 

[rddvet]

...
I am 100% cave inexperienced and not qualified to judge anything here. I gather all of those doing the judging are quite experienced and know what you talk about. I find this thread, all of it to be very interesting. It’s a high value thread. I really like @dewdropsonrosa ’s open heart not holding back narration. I like the advise pouring in. I like the discussion. Thanks all.

I learn that open hearted narration invites all that, including all the judging. I dare to ask: What is up with all that judging?

Is that just natural part of the process in the cave community to arrive at the best you can be at a diver... and one better gets used to it if wanting to go there?

I mean she is with a qualified, experienced, highly regarded instructor who watches her every move - is she not? She reports here open hearted, not a shred of macho in her words, feelings out in the open...which allows valuable insight... but not as much as the instructor watching her every move and having all those conversations with her would have. ... or?

Is Reggie actually doing this wrong? Is he really pushing the student too hard into too much too soon? That is not the impression I got from the narration at all ... but I don’t know, reading between the lines of some of the comments, is that the impression I should be getting? I mean this is highly qualified people doing the talking here, it is not someone with 37 dives or so giving advice here.

Or should I just brush this aside as the typical Internet forum thing of competing display of expertise nevertheless and continue to think, as the narration itself leads me to, that this is good, controlled training in progress during which also (naturally) certain boundaries, physical and psychological will be discovered and outlined and dealt with appropriately?

So its not typical “internet judginess”. There is a very significant degradation of cave training thats been happening for a few years, which some good instructors are struggling to fix. A good cave candidate is one that has the basics down prior to class but may need fine tuning once in class. In my case I had never been in doubles and had an interest in cave training, but knew I wasnt ready. My first instructor chose to be a mentor. He chose to take me and a couple other people diving and show us the ins ans outs of doubles and drysuit diving. He also added some cave skills such as reel work. He prepared us for cavern and cavern only. We then took cavern as a standalone course. During the course we refined our skills (mostly in ow) then added complexity by moving i to the cavern. We werent given the option to progress. We were told to get some dives in and work on our skilllset, buddy awareness, and team dynamics. We then moved onto cave. Thats not the norm, but thats closer to the way it should work.
Taking a student with minimal to zero doubles experience and throwing them into a full cave course is a recipe for issues.
There are things in this thread that stand out as concerns that relate to some of the issues that are happening in cave training. I commend the op for freely sharing experiences, but when you freely share, you should expect reactiona both positive and negatice. I also commend the op on choosing to stop at apprentice. That shows she’s got safety in mind.
The intent isnt to pick on the op, but I think some questions pop up that a reader without cave experience should be aware of, such as the perils of zero to hero training and learning basic skills in a cave class. I think the op will learn just as much going out and diving at the apprentice level as she would going further at this time, if not more.

 

[lv2dive]

Everyone, this is called “the live blog” - @dewdropsonrosa was excited (and brave) enough to share her progression through her training with us. While I recognize the zero-to-hero course attempt is something a lot of us don’t think is a good idea, she’s already acknowledged that is no longer her goal.

Personally, I appreciate her candidness, and believe her sharing can insightful for others considering this path in the future. That is, if the rest of us don’t chase her off and she continues to post.

But this thread getting kind of critical in even though it was supposed to be blog.... I would ask everyone who is posting to remember when they first started taking their cave training, how they would have felt if they were documenting that experience and then before they even got half-way through the class, the thread turned into what this one has. She didn’t ask for our opinions, and she is coming to some similar realizations on her own. There is no need for us to beat her about the head as she seems like a very intelligent, reasonable person/diver, can we maybe consider if the negative posts are really critical, and weigh them against continued posts from the OP? I’d really like to read about the rest of her training.

 

[lv2dive]

Michael if you read her thread she had an incident coming out of the ear, and that is how she tore her fingers up. Not bc she wasn’t paying attention to her instructor or ignoring your advice.

If your hands are messed up from pulling, you probably didn't listen to your instructor who told you to pull from outstreached arm to your shoulder. Pulling further makes you rotate your hand which scrapes off skin. Untill I learned to listen to what my instructor had told me, my fingertips were also a bloody mess.

Join the gang, everybody just starting out thinks that they can pull further than what the instructor told them and instructors regard this as a learning experience. It's been 21 years for me and I still haven't forgotten.

But I already warned you in post #4 of this thread.

Michael