NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[rddvet]

Since resigning I do not meet the membership requirement.

Your post about your experience with the conference was greatly appreciated and very telling. I know how hard it appeared you worked(from afar and watching internet posts), so for you to resign afterwards really tells me there are some big problems.

Cop out. All you have to do is pay.

not to be an ass, but you’re really not doing a good job of getting your point across and this statement shows it.

 

[rjack321]

I get it you don't like the CDS and don't see a value. Having the CDS as a prominent non-profit organization, it is something that entities can relate to, especially if you factor in their relationship with the NSS, which has massive prominence. What would cave diving look like without the CDS. More likely we would have fewer sites, and probably greater access limits, because do you see the for- profit agencies taking an active role. The only way the for-profit agencies were able to develop cave programs is because of the foundation the CDS and NACD laid out,but thus far they take,but don't return anything to the community- except t-shirts at the workshop. Have you seen the for profit agencies install new line and warning signs? I have yet to see a TDI or IANTD grim reaper sign in a cave. When Eagles Nest was under threat, and all the agencies use it for training, who responded? Crickets from the for profit agencies. Vote with you dollars by not being a member, and continue a critical stance,but anybody who enjoys cave diving has the CDS to thank for it.

Alas, I see NSS begging for members and money while people ask "what value do you offer?" practically weekly. CDS is in good company.

For an organization that is in theory national, what has CDS ever done outside of FL? Gold line grants in Mexico, anything else?

 

[Superlyte27]

You know how easy it would be to absolutely control the CDS? A wealthy guy could add a few hundred people guaranteed to vote the way he wanted. Within a few years, the entire board could be changed to people who would dictate new rules, direction, leadership.

I’d almost do it just to alleviate boredom.
If you see an influx of a 1000 new members no one knows in the next few months, it might be me

 

[tursiops]

Is this different from the cop out of not responding to acute questions asked of your postings?

Why are you trying to make this about me? There are multiple people with good things to say about what is wrong with the CDS or how to make it better, but they all run away using specious excuses about not being a member.

I'll try and clarify my points and expand on them. I apologize in advance for the length of the post.

I agree that the CDS is outmoded and uncommunicative, and that life would go on without the CDS, or the NACD for that matter. I have cards from both organizations, and Abe Davis and Wakulla Bronze, so I'd be sad if they both went away, but not surprised or upset.

However, the problem with both organizations (IMHO, which you keep asking for) is their lack of adult, thoughtful leadership that is not wedded to N FL as the center of the universe. NFSA has taken over a lot of that mantle anyway. I would like to see more meaningful focus on additional cave-diving regions (Mexico?), but primarily a serious attention to instructor quality, not quantity. New cave divers, and those thinking of becoming such, should not have to play Russian roulette when they choose an instructor. GUE manages to make it work. But a choice of training agencies is good...so I don't really care if it is CDS or NAUI or whomever that becomes the agency with a first-rate instructor qc process for cave diving, but someone needs to. I doubt if it can be ANY N FL-centric agency, because of the conflict of interest when your neighbor's livelihood is involved.

My hope was that the valid criticisms and good suggestions in this thread could be incorporated in the CDS, because (1) the NACD is irrelevant, (2) starting a new training agency is really hard, and (3) the narrow focus of a cave-training agency is easier to deal with than the broad focus of a NAUI or TDI.

My complaints about some of the posts have been on two points: (1) complaining is not good enough; one needs to offer some solutions too. (2) Any improvements in the CDS will come from people on the Board, so it is kind of selfish to complain or give good ideas without also offering to help. The NFSA works because people offer to help. Investing time to make something better is how things get better.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I agree with @tbone1004 the NSS-CDS needs to better define their mission and communicate if they want to drive new members or get renewals. Right now the only reason for me to join would be when I want to dive COW. Adam is a nice guy, but I don't know if it is because he wears too many hates, but the office side of the CDS is SLOW. I didn't notice that my recent card was lost in the mail, because my past experience is that it takes almost a month to get cards. Compare that with TDI and IANTD where I have the card within minutes of the instructor paying the fee.

That being said, I don't disagree with their decision to not join forums. Very few organizations really have a active presence in user forums or even groups (unless it is their own group), as they can't control the message. That being said, when you are in outreach mode and trying to grow being active on all the places means you are more accessible and easier to convince people to come to the dark side.

I'm not sure what is the best way to market to people, but if you compare it to other organizations the CDS is hardly trying. TDI publish regular blog posts, GUE is very very active with videos a couple times a week and a virtual magazine. All free, no membership required.

 

[karstdvr]

Alas, I see NSS begging for members and money while people ask "what value do you offer?" practically weekly. CDS is in good company.

For an organization that is in theory national, what has CDS ever done outside of FL? Gold line grants in Mexico, anything else?

The comment you quoted of having nonprofit status in Florida and affiliation with the NSS are important. With the CDS having been around for a long time and having recognition as an organization, this is what government entities turn to. For example, when the state parks develop new management plans for the 10 year cycle, the community is invited for input, there is another meeting that has specific entities, and the CDS is invited. They help explain the sport of cave diving and their advice helps to promote access. . You know at one time Lafeyette Blue and Jug Hole were closed to cave diving,but this type of discussion lead to reopening.When Eagles Nest was being threatened with closure, a government agency will listen to an organization versus a few people But, your current comment is what do they do outside Florida. They used to run institutes in Mexico and materials in Spanish,but Mexico has become more independent. There have been yearly midwest workshops with supplying line. Could they do more, yes, but very limited when you have a small volunteer base.

 

[karstdvr]

I am fully aware of the history. We we completely transparent in all decisions. This was not oversight, this was hostility paired with a complete lack of leadership.

That is sad,because it shouldn't be that way. You did an awesome job, and so many do appreciate it.

 

[karstdvr]

Again, so much for the "out" reach.

Caving, in fact evey thing used to be be promoted by Word of Mouth. Now it's done by "Word of Social Media". Why keep using the telegraph after the phone has been invented? Le sigh. "We've always done it this way..." has never been a good defense.


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Have you engaged the CDS on use of social media and what can be brought to the table? They have been burned in the past, have you offered to help them? If they need modernization have you engaged them on this? I have not defended what they do, but I understand why,but have you contacted them directly and been rebuffed? Who rebuffed you?

 

[karstdvr]

The question is not if you like the CDS or not,but if you like to cave dive. Do you belong to one of the large cave diving groups that have permits and can guarantee access to sites? Do you have lots of money and bought a spring? Or are you completely dependent on driving up to a site,getting your gear out , and go diving. I think 99% of the people on this forum are in that category, and who is responsible for securing and maintaining your privledge to dive there? Cave diving permission isn't something magically gifted,but someone if the past secured the access, and someone has made effort to maintain that access. (Trust me this is a bitch to do, because I have been involved in opening 6 sites, and it takes a lot of time.) How would you feel if you made a trip to find no diving signs posted at Little River? Sounds silly,but this almost happened TWICE. Once when the construction was finished with the current concrete facade around the basin, and another when there was a dive drowning at Royal,but the CDS was around to help address these issues, and diving went on seemlessly. Can you trust individual cave divers to help fix these problems? So far in that category we are 0-2 with the loss of Falmouth and Diepolder. The saying is everyone is a DAN member,because you can share in the benefit of DAN, even without being a DAN member. In a way every cave diver is a CDS member, because as I mentioned in my first posting to this thread the sites the CDS has been involved in in opening or keeping opened ,everyone has benefitted from. Membership helps the organization, not just in dues, because last I checked most of the dues go to UWS anyway,but the larger the organization the greater the voice with government organizations. If you don't like the organization or want to see it go a different way, there is a way to fix all of that,but become a member and change it. If you don't want to that is fine,but do enjoy the pictures posted of great sites that are permit only.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

On a scale of 1-10 I give the CDS a score of 6 or 7 in terms of the total effectiveness the organization has potential for. The limitations described by @tbone1004 , @rjack321, @rddvet and others are duly noted and have merit. Those comments may be more helpful if addressed to bod@nsscds.org.

The historical and ongoing accomplishments described by @karstdvr have a lot of merit as well. Government agencies controlling access to various dive sites have LONG relied on in part to the CDS to help them decide to keep access open and to establish rules that keep them happy enough to continue to allow access. I have attended meetings with the State Park people and have witnessed first hand the fact that they rely on us to help them form policy.

Better communication from the BoD to the membership and public should be a much higher priority than it is. The website at www.nsscds.org is definitely stale and in desperate need of work and must be better utilized to communicate to the membership, the public and entities that control access to dive sites. I give the website a 4 out of 10 and that may be generous.

My eyebrows raise when I hear that there are "dangerous", or "bad" instructors within the CDS instructor ranks. I can guarantee that the training chairman and training committee members will take seriously any reports filed by members or non-members who witness training standards violations and/or unsafe practices in regards to cave diver training. Those comments and observations may be more effective it sent to the training chairman at trainingdirector@nsscds.org

I have provided e-mail addresses with the assumption that those of you who have identified and called out weaknesses truly would like to see change. I would hope that those e-mails would not fall on deaf ears.

Overall IMO the CDS helps support in a positive way the cave diving community as a whole. I think we all benefit to some degree from the CDS being in existence. CDS could and SHOULD do better...