NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[Dominick Gheesling]

There is a reason for this, although I can understand not wanting to be micromanaged. There was a workshop where the workshop chairman didn't have any oversight. All of sudden we discovered that the speakers from Australia, South Africa, and Mexico were flown on the CDS' dime, and housed. The workshop had a deficit of $39. Not fair to you guys,but it was felt henceforth some type of monitoring was needed to make sure something like that didn't happen again.

I am fully aware of the history. We we completely transparent in all decisions. This was not oversight, this was hostility paired with a complete lack of leadership.

 

[ofg-1]

. No wonder they are dying

Don't you think that's quite a leap? Just because some percentage of the population chooses not to be on social media, or participate in a forum such as this one or CDF, does not mean they are dead or dying. It just means they choose not to expose themselves to such silliness as this.

.

 

[tursiops]

since you continue to deflect

Not deflect....ignore.

 

[tbone1004]

Don't you think that's quite a leap? Just because some percentage of the population chooses not to be on social media, or participate in a forum such as this one or CDF, does not mean they are dead or dying. It just means they choose not to expose themselves to such silliness as this.

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Are membership numbers rising at the same rate as the number of cave divers out there? If not, then they are certainly not thriving and from outward appearances, they are dying.

 

[tbone1004]

Not deflect....ignore.

why do you want to actively prevent positive discussion about the current state of the organization and the value it brings? That is literally the point of this thread is to find the positive things that they are doing, not have done, but actively doing, and why that is important to the community.

 

[The Chairman]

Bottom line the CDS does have a mechanism to engage them, and not looking at their formal communication there,will keep you in the dark

Again, so much for the "out" reach.

Caving, in fact evey thing used to be be promoted by Word of Mouth. Now it's done by "Word of Social Media". Why keep using the telegraph after the phone has been invented? Le sigh. "We've always done it this way..." has never been a good defense.

No different with outreach. You don't need to be talking to certified cave divers. You don't need to be talking to those already looking for a cave instructor. They've already been sold on your mission: at that point, you're trying to sell them on you, instead of, say NFSA. But that's a zero-sum game: it doesn't grow the pie.

Not to toot my own horn (toot-toot), but SB has the corner on new divers looking for something else to do and/or try. We have the cave-curious, the spear-curious, the photo-curious and so on. Some don't even know that they're curious. Dive more: post more should be your motto. The CDS and SB are both run by divers who are cavers to boot.

In reading this whole thread, and some of it twice, @tmassey's thread should be required reading for all on the BOD. Yeah, it's a bit long, but it's illuminating. So are @tbone1004's posts. They might be uncomfortable, but if you want to learn how to grow the NSS-CDS, they are a good primer. If you just want to defend why the NSS-CDS can't or won't change, then... good job.

I have to admit that I don't think I'm a current NSS-CDS member. Their auto renew always seems to fail even though the card remains the same. When I attend a conference I always ask to re-up. It's been about two years since my last one, so it's probably lapsed

. However, I am a fan and do like what they've done. I'm not a fan of some of their politics and good ol' boy antics. Still, I would recommend them as well as the NFSA as good organizations to belong to. I say that as I don't want to be labeled an NSS-CDS enemy or hater. In fact, if there is anything I can do to help, I would most gladly assist.

So ultimately you did them a favor

I've made this point before: he's not an enemy. Why treat him as such? Why is disagreeing or giving constructive criticism viewed as being adversarial? Why would he take time out of his day to attempt to guide you, if he truly hated you? Feedback is a bonus not an attack. The more defensive you are, the more troubling those questions become. No, not just for those asking the questions, but for everyone else who comes to read this thread over the years to come.

I hesitate to share this. I offered them a dedicated place here. A public place with a private "Members Only" section. They thanked me, but felt they needed their own forum and asked me to help create it. I asked for help from SB staff and soon we had their forum up and running. Cool. But then I asked a question and was told I was being divisive and promptly kicked out. The protocol was set and no one ever dared asked a question in there again. I spoke with the person who did it and while they sorta apologized, they never let me back in. I've been told that the question was too demanding, that I wanted an answer too quickly and all sorts of other schlock. None of that was true. I asked a question about an accident, with no demands or timeline in it. Getting defensive does that to you. Unfortunately, when you start to treat those with questions as if they were your enemy, they sometimes become one. IOW, I suggest you take it down a notch. Most often, when anyone criticizes me publicly, I take a day to respond. The harsher ones may take even longer. I do thank them for their concern and tell them I'll answer them shortly, but after that I want to take my time. Are they right? Is this something I should change? Is this something I can change? How can I do this? etc. etc. Sometimes I have to figure out exactly what they're saying or why they said it like this. You'll very seldom improve without outside insight. It's one reason why I take classes. When your instructor tells you how to improve, you should thank them and not treat them like an enemy. Feedback is a bonus.

 

[ofg-1]

Are membership numbers rising at the same rate as the number of cave divers out there? If not, then they are certainly not thriving and from outward appearances, they are dying.

2 problems with this thinking. First, you have no idea how many cave divers are out there, neither do I, CDS is certainly not the only people teaching. Second, over the years it has been kinda established that a majority of cave divers last in the sport less than 7 years, most less than 5. Then they move on to something else, like a family or different career. Membership numbers vs number of cave divers is a bad comparison. Membership rates have fluctuated over the years.
.

 

[bradymsu]

I'm in the process now of getting back into cave diving after being absent from it for 16 years. On January 1, 2021, I joined both NSS and CDS. With NSS, I received a welcome email with my membership number within 48 hours. With CDS, when I log into the website it still says "There is no content assigned to this membership." No welcome email, not even an automated one. I requested to join CDS on Facebook. Despite it being set up as a public group with no requirement for CDS membership to join the group, for some reason people still need to request to join. It took over two days to get approved. Once approved, I posted a question asking about cave refresher courses. Posts are moderated for new members and my post was never approved or rejected. So I posted it instead in Facebook's Cave Diving group and received quite a bit of feedback. The membership services and social media aspects of CDS leave a lot to be desired. I realize these are likely volunteer positions but it doesn't take much effort or time to moderate a Facebook group. In short, I haven't gotten the early impression that NSS-CDS cares about its paid members.

 

[tursiops]

why do you want to actively prevent positive discussion about the current state of the organization and the value it brings? That is literally the point of this thread is to find the positive things that they are doing, not have done, but actively doing, and why that is important to the community.

I said what I had to say. I do not live that close to N FT so the seminars are not that important to me, but they are to others. I said I like the idea of students having a choice of cave instructors; you say many of them are crap. OK, what is YOUR solution?

If things are not happening, it is the fault of the BOD. You have been extremely negative, but are unwilling to be part of the BOD to change things.
I do not care for that, frankly. You ask ME to be positive? Why don't YOU try that?

 

[The Chairman]

I posted a question asking about cave refresher courses.

My suggestion would be @kensuf [/brown nosing]