NSS-CDS Effectiveness

[lermontov]

This is essentially what needs to be done except there are two problems.
1. The board of the CDS operates with staggered terms so it's not possible to create that ground swell of new board members unless sitting members resign mid-term

2. Culture-- I don't know the make up of the CDS board or what the different personalities and factions are, but when an organization gets this bad more than a "new" majority is typically required. The source of the poisoned culture can't just be over ruled by majority vote, it really needs to step away if the growth and progress is to be sustained long term.

I am not claiming it is easy or as simple as it sounds, I am only stating what needs to be done.

On another note--Can someone repost the Apprentice and Apprentice Plus standards. Either something has been 'updated' or CDS instructors are routinely breaking standards. I hear about classes with 1 jump. 3rds, deco, or some combination of the above all under the guise of "this is the Plus class" all the time.

depends how desperate the members are - there has to be an option of a vote of no confidence or such like in the constitution somewhere

 

[rjack321]

The comment you quoted of having nonprofit status in Florida and affiliation with the NSS are important. With the CDS having been around for a long time and having recognition as an organization, this is what government entities turn to. For example, when the state parks develop new management plans for the 10 year cycle, the community is invited for input, there is another meeting that has specific entities, and the CDS is invited. They help explain the sport of cave diving and their advice helps to promote access. . You know at one time Lafeyette Blue and Jug Hole were closed to cave diving,but this type of discussion lead to reopening.When Eagles Nest was being threatened with closure, a government agency will listen to an organization versus a few people But, your current comment is what do they do outside Florida. They used to run institutes in Mexico and materials in Spanish,but Mexico has become more independent. There have been yearly midwest workshops with supplying line. Could they do more, yes, but very limited when you have a small volunteer base.

Thank you. I knew about a few efforts outside of FL.
I can imagine its a bit hard to recruit and retain people who want to be part of CDS - partly due to the chicken and egg effect.

For me, I will continue supporting my Canadian clubs/organizations. the Vancouver Island Cave Exploration Group (VICEG), British Columbia Speleological Federation (BCSF), Canadian Cave Conservancy (CCC) and Canadian Caver (bi annual publication). While a US resident/citizen, they are active where I am active.

I would like to support US cave organizations but I see lots of parochialism, an inability to adapt to a changing world, and lack of any relevance within 1000s of miles from me. Begging for members and dues while offering little or nothing in exchange except good will. This is especially problematic since there's little or no accountability for the money. Hearing stories about how disenfranchised new members rapidly become even as they offer to help organize conferences on their own time kind of seals the deal. Best of luck to you all.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

On another note--Can someone repost the Apprentice and Apprentice Plus standards.

The Apprentice Cave Diver course prepares students to dive within the following limits:
A. Penetration is limited to a gas volume of 1,400 L/50 ft3 or one-third the available starting volume, whichever is less.
C. Minimum starting volume of 2,100 L/75 ft3 and a minimum penetration gas volume of 700 L/25 ft3. The minimum starting volume does not apply if, during training, the instructor is having students practice skills within the daylight zone.
D. Penetration distance of no more than 300 m/1,000 ft from the surface.
E. Depth of no more than 30 m/100 ft.
F. Minimum starting visibility of at least 10 m/30 ft.
H. Divers may navigate off the main line using a single reel or spool. However, no jumps or gaps to offshoot or continuation lines.
I. No planned decompression.
J. No use of stage bottles or DPVs.
K. No original exploration.

====================================

2.4.3 Extending the Limits of Training
By spending additional time with their instructor, students may extend the limits of training for Apprentice Cave Diver. To do this, they must make at least one additional dive beyond the eight required for Apprentice Cave. This dive must include at least one jump to an offshoot line. Instructors who take advantage of this option must be authorized to teach to the full Cave Diver level.
If students perform to the instructor’s satisfaction, the instructor may issue an NSS-CDS Apprentice Cave Diver Statement of Understanding. This form clearly outlines four areas in which students may or may not exceed the normal Apprentice Cave Diver limits. The instructor can use the form to specify which limits these are and by how much students may exceed them. These limits include:
A. Usable Gas: Removes the 1,400 L/50 ft3 restriction and allows students to use a full third of their starting volume.
B. Distance: Removes the 300 m/1,000 ft restriction. The instructor may list a specific number of meters or feet to which students may go.
C. Limited Decompression: Allows students to make planned decompression dives using pure oxygen or oxygen-rich decompression mixture. Students must hold certification in the use of such deco mixtures and in decompression procedures by a widely recognized technical diver training organization. Decompression is limited by the fact students may not use stage bottles or dive below 30 m/100 ft.
D. Navigation: Students may make limited jumps to offshoot lines. The number of jumps is not specified, but is limited by the total distance students may penetrate.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I was under the impression that Apprentice was more or less phased out and that most divers these days do Intro and then do Full Cave. Is this not the case?

 

[kensuf]

So there were some naming things that may be a wee bit confusing.

Old Basic Cave/Intro (pre-2019) had limits of 1/6th of doubles (or 1/3rd of single tank for Intro), no deco, no navigational decisions. It's been replaced with the new Apprentice program, 1000' max penetration, max of 50 cubic feet of gas penetration (you need more than 150 cubic feet starting to get that), no navigational decisions.

Old Apprentice (pre-2019) had limits of 1 navigational decision, full use of thirds on penetration and a 12 or 18 month expiration date. That program is replaced with "Apprentice Plus," which is not really a certification but rather a memorandum of understanding between the instructor and student while the student gains some experience before completing full cave. The MOU has an expiration date. In order to earn Apprentice + you need to have completed all of the requirements of Apprentice and then spend some additional time with your instructor working towards your full Cave diver rating.

 

[CptTightPants21]

The Apprentice Cave Diver course prepares students to dive within the following limits:
A. Penetration is limited to a gas volume of 1,400 L/50 ft3 or one-third the available starting volume, whichever is less.
C. Minimum starting volume of 2,100 L/75 ft3 and a minimum penetration gas volume of 700 L/25 ft3. The minimum starting volume does not apply if, during training, the instructor is having students practice skills within the daylight zone.
D. Penetration distance of no more than 300 m/1,000 ft from the surface.
E. Depth of no more than 30 m/100 ft.
F. Minimum starting visibility of at least 10 m/30 ft.
H. Divers may navigate off the main line using a single reel or spool. However, no jumps or gaps to offshoot or continuation lines.
I. No planned decompression.
J. No use of stage bottles or DPVs.
K. No original exploration.

====================================

2.4.3 Extending the Limits of Training
By spending additional time with their instructor, students may extend the limits of training for Apprentice Cave Diver. To do this, they must make at least one additional dive beyond the eight required for Apprentice Cave. This dive must include at least one jump to an offshoot line. Instructors who take advantage of this option must be authorized to teach to the full Cave Diver level.
If students perform to the instructor’s satisfaction, the instructor may issue an NSS-CDS Apprentice Cave Diver Statement of Understanding. This form clearly outlines four areas in which students may or may not exceed the normal Apprentice Cave Diver limits. The instructor can use the form to specify which limits these are and by how much students may exceed them. These limits include:
A. Usable Gas: Removes the 1,400 L/50 ft3 restriction and allows students to use a full third of their starting volume.
B. Distance: Removes the 300 m/1,000 ft restriction. The instructor may list a specific number of meters or feet to which students may go.
C. Limited Decompression: Allows students to make planned decompression dives using pure oxygen or oxygen-rich decompression mixture. Students must hold certification in the use of such deco mixtures and in decompression procedures by a widely recognized technical diver training organization. Decompression is limited by the fact students may not use stage bottles or dive below 30 m/100 ft.
D. Navigation: Students may make limited jumps to offshoot lines. The number of jumps is not specified, but is limited by the total distance students may penetrate.

Thank you for posting this; it clears up a lot of confusion. Was there no discussion on the board about how this creates an entire managerie of certification cards-all with the same name, but with COMPLETELY different rules?

My opinion is if you wanted to do a "Plus Class" You make it 1 Navigational decision plus 1/3rds of 2/3rds like a GUE Cave 1. It lets you expand the scope of class, generate a more practical certification, and create something closer to a uniform standard. As it is written right now a person could potentially do the Grand Traverse on the Apprentice Plus card.

I think one of the bigger culprits is the 1,000ft distance restriction. Pick one--either distance or volume of gas. Incorporating both seems to lend itself to one of them being ignored-typically the 1,000ft. It is also possible the 1000ft distance won't make sense in different geographies--aka Mexico.

You have a house with too many walls, so you put in doors to get around those walls; but now you have too many doors and no longer have a structure.

I like to think of myself as fairly informed, but these new standards have created a certification card that no experienced cave diver would know about

Me: What is your certification level
Them: I have Apprentice
Me: Apprentice Cave or Apprentice Cave Plus
Them: Apprentice Cave Plus
Me:???Still don't know if that is 1/3rds, jumps, distance

Not to be too on the nose, but this is a REAL problem. I'm not even going to fully address the couple of new divers I ran into who insisted they had Apprentice, just Apprentice, but from the dives they were planning/could do it was clearly an Apprentice Cave Plus class.

 

[The Chairman]

but from the dives they were planning/could do it was clearly an Apprentice Cave Plus class.

I didn't realize they resurrected the Cave Police!

 

[rjack321]

A recommended alternative approach for you @CptTightPants21...

Me: What are you trained to do?
Them: I have Apprentice
Me: Tell me more about what that included?
Them: I can dive 1/3rds and one navigational decision
Me: Well it's Peacock, do you really think we should dive 1/3rds here?
Them: We did in class
Me: How many people were in your class?
Them: Just me and the instructor
Me: k...

I'm not really a DM, I just play one on the internet, but the title on the card isn't the really important bit.

 

[rddvet]

The CDS training system imo has always pushed people to speed through their certs and combine as many as classes back to back as possible. Seems like apprentice plus is just giving into that urge. Not a fan

 

[tbone1004]

The CDS training system imo has always pushed people to speed through their certs and combine as many as classes back to back as possible. Seems like apprentice plus is just giving into that urge. Not a fan

especially since it is only a single dive and adds in a lot of potential complexity, but oh well. I still sit FIRMLY in the camp that the CDS needs to get out of training, at least the basic portion. Stick with survey, sump, other unique aspects of cave diving, but not the basic levels. It is a huge alienation point for a lot of new divers as well.