Charging extra for VIP??

[kelemvor]

I just dropped off a bunch of tanks at my LDS for hydro last week. No idea what the hydro shop charges the dive shop, but I believe the shop said $35 a tank. It's going to be an expensive day when it's time to pick them up.

For that, I get:

1. Hydro stamp (they do test for + rating)
2. Tumble, if needed (I think that's what he said). I don't think it will be, we both looked in the tanks prior to me leaving the shop and the insides looked dandy.
   
3. O2 clean for blending. I believe it includes cleaning with simple green or some such.
   
4. New stickers, including the big "nitrox" sticker that goes around it and vip sticker.
5. Cleaned valve, including the tank neck o-ring.
6. Nitrox fills.

So, yeah he's charging more than the hydro ship is likely to be charging him. He's also providing me with some extra stuff. Could I do it cheaper myself? I'm sure I could. But then I'd have to do all that stuff myself including driving them to/from the hydro shop and drive them to/from the lds (since I don't have a fill station). Seems like a square deal to me. Fill price + actual hydro price (assuming he also gets it for $15 each) leaves him 5 bucks extra per tank. I think that's reasonable. Actually, now that wrote it down, it seems like a pretty good deal.

Are these guys charging "extra for a vip after hydro" really only doing a VIP? No fills included, no stickers etc?

 

[The Chairman]

Actually, now that wrote it down, it seems like a pretty good deal.

I agree. That's a full service hydro at a very reasonable price. I pay $15 for commercial hydro and take care of the rest. I used to only pay $7.50 in Orlando from a fire extinguisher company.

 

[NAM001]

So, you think they should charge more for this after the customer pays for a hydro?

A hydro trumps a VIP. A hydro every five years will not only detect exterior flaws, such as a bent tank or gouges, but it will also uncover internal flaws that a VIS could never find. I trust the physics of pressurizing a vessel to 5/3s of it's rated pressure and seeing how it reacts over people getting away with not doing their jobs or who have no idea how to do that job. I certainly remember taking the first tank I ever vised into my local LDS to get filled. I was so proud of myself, until I was told that I wasn't allowed to do my own VIPs. Wow. I had just gotten my PSI number and was amazed at this attitude. I showed him the PSI number on my VIP sticker and asked what his number was. I was even more surprised that he was never formally trained to do a VIP. He had no idea how deep a gouge was allowable nor that tanks could get bent and so on, but he was eager to deny my knowledge. He hadn't spent the time I had to learn the procedure, yet he was quite willing to deny my certification to protect his cash flow. The efficacy of a VIP depends on the tech doing the VIP. Not all shops are equal in this regard. No shop needs to do a VIP after the hydro has been done.

Hydros are mandated by law. VIPs are mandated by our industry. An additional VIP after a hydro is not mandated by law. No, a shop isn't "ripping you off" by doing a VIP after the fact. There's a lot of myths and misconceptions out there about this kind of thing. It's their shop and their rules. I actually do my VIPs before my tanks go to the hydro facility. Why hydro a tank that won't even pass a VIP?


Sure. But a VIP won't ensure them being clean, will it? You either re-clean them and charge extra or you cheat. BTW, I never certify NitrOx tanks to be O2 clean anymore. I won't allow any of my tanks to be partial pressure filled. Banked, blended or membrane only for me.

Pete I think we are on the same side of the argument. I agree that the shop should do the vip. The hydro does a vip as a precursor to hydro. Seldom do I see a hydro shop do a proper one, especially if one needs a vip for O2, nitrox as opposed air. Yes its a cleaning issue for the most part but hydro shops do not do that because it is moot to their hydro process. The tank could be pear shaped and they would not know it because they don't check for it prior to going in the tank. Are they supposed to YES but they don't in my experience. I watched some al tanks get hydro'd for the benefit of learning. he removes a boot , takes off the valve. looked inside for puddles of corrosion. checked for good threads and in the tank it went. If you need it cleaned or vip'd other than for holding pressure content, you are better to go to a shop and get it done.

I don't agree with you that vips are not required by law. If it is in the CFR it is by law. That's another discussion.

 

[NAM001]

Why would an LDS send the valve to the hydro facility?

Hydro shop is supposed to verify the proper burst disk is installed for the tank. The is why many tanks go to hydro with out valves new disks are probably 10$ apiece just to have to cave rig them again. Some change valves with the correct ones when sending them to hydro or the shop and then fill to 100 psi.

 

[The Chairman]

The hydro does a vip as a precursor to hydro.

This is where we disagree... hydro techs don't do VIPs. The visual inspection they do is not a VIP. In fact, they don't need to do VIPs. Why? VIPs are a guess as to whether a cylinder is suitable for service and are incredibly subjective. Hydrostatic testing is an objective test to requalify a cylinder's suitability for service. The visual inspection done by the hydro tech is so they won't waste their time on a piece of junk and avoid a clean up in the shop. It's all it needs to be and it's not a VIP.

Pressure in a tank stresses the metal of the tank causing the metal to stretch and expand sort of like a balloon. Metals stretch in two ways when stressed: elastic (temporary-good) or plastic (permanent-bad). A hydrostatic test determines the elasticity of a tank. We want them to be like rubber bands, returning to their original shape when we take the pressure off. Conditions like dents, cracks, deep gouges and bends (banana tanks) aren't elastic so any stress induced deformation (stretch) will be permanent and will be measured during a hydro. How do they do this? This is a bit of an oversimplification and some tanks require additional steps like a preload, etc, but here goes: An unpressurized tank is put into a container and the initial volume it displaces is measured. The tank is filled with water (safety issue), pressurized to 5/3s of its rated pressure and is remeasured to determine its max volume. The pressure is then vented and the tank's final volume is measured. Hopefully the final volume is close to the initial volume. The tech then compares the initial, max and the final volumes of the tank to determine if it is within specs, ei: sufficiently elastic. Tanks that aren't elastic are dangerous and should be retired. No, you can't see this deformation with the naked eye, but it can and is measured every time a hydro is done.

The objective test is superior in every way to the subjective test and eliminates the need to waste time and money conducting any lesser tests. In other words, a hydro eliminates the need to do a VIP, which should not be confused with the hydro tech's initial visual inspection.

Also, hydro techs aren't concerned with tank cleanliness but that's something a VIP can't really determine either. The only way to be sure a tank is clean enough for oxygen service is to clean it. Oh, I've seen black lights used to determine if a cylinder is contaminated and I think that's silly. Not all contaminates fluoresce and some safe lubricants do, so it's not fool proof. Again, the only way to make sure a cylinder is clean is to clean it.

Hydro shop is supposed to verify the proper burst disk is installed for the tank.

I have yet to send in a valve for hydro and they have never asked for it either. It would be up to the shop, but most shops I know don't routinely service valves when a tank comes in for a VIP or a hydro. I don't think I'll believe this unless you can find it in writing.

 

[jseyfert3]

Hydro shop is supposed to verify the proper burst disk is installed for the tank. The is why many tanks go to hydro with out valves new disks are probably 10$ apiece just to have to cave rig them again. Some change valves with the correct ones when sending them to hydro or the shop and then fill to 100 psi.

I'm amused how stuck up on the VIP you are while simultaneously seeming to be so casual about filling and using tanks over their rated working pressure.

 

[kelemvor]

I'm amused how stuck up on the VIP you are while simultaneously seeming to be so casual about filling and using tanks over their rated working pressure.

If you're not meaning to just poke fun at him for some reason, I will point out that the two are directly related. If you're cave filling, you want to make sure the tank is in good shape. Inspecting and cleaning the thing is a good way to do it.

 

[WarrenZ]

This will blow your mind but around here they use an ultrasound machine to look at wall thickness cracking pitting so the valve never even comes out.

 

[redacted]

This will blow your mind but around here they use an ultrasound machine to look at wall thickness cracking pitting so the valve never even comes out.

When performing an unregulated inspection, there may be many potential technologies involved including ESP. Do you have a link to this specific technology?

 

[NAM001]

I'm amused how stuck up on the VIP you are while simultaneously seeming to be so casual about filling and using tanks over their rated working pressure.

You missed the point. Many people do not send tanks with the valves because the hydro is supposed to check the valves for proper burst disks. Those that do cave fills then have to remove the disks and make them the way they were prior to the hydro shop replacing them. There is nothing casual about my statement. it is a reality in the overhead environment world. Next there is no stuck up about the statement either. The point of the statement is that hydro requires a visual inspection IAW with cfr bla bla bla prior to redertification testing. NOthing is required after the testing. If you have flash rusting it is nowthe shops issue to deal withthat. It is done not for the requirements of anything other than air use. If you want a vis for nitrox use it will not be done by the hydro'er, which means the dive shop will do it along with what ever cleaning is required to pass the tank for O2 use. As far as the valve goes you need to look at the hydro proceedures set forth by the CFR's relating to hydro. I dont know the verbage used however some else posted it says it will be visually inspected IAW cfr c-1 through c-6 Those are the same cfr's that cover VIP inspections. It would be nice to have available the Cfr'S BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE perhaps 200 each, so c1-c6 is over a thousand $'s . And they cover nothing more than the proceedures for doing the VIP. It would be beneficial to you to get a class book form a PSI student tosee what is involved in a VIP as per the CFR's. OI know it was an eye opener for me my first time through.