Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

[rek_diver]

If I'm entangled to thee point where I can't swim to the surface then I can't surface. Having a pony won't fix that, but it will give me more time to CUT MYSELF FREE

There, fixed that for ya

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have a great deal of respect for you, and I have found your comments to usually be very helpful, but I'm not sure I see where you're going with this.

If I'm entangled to the point where I can't swim to the surface then I can't surface. Having a pony won't fix that, but it will give me more time to struggle. Having a buddy won't fix that, but it will give me another brain, another perspective, and hopefully non-entangled hands assuming they're not tangled in the same thing as me.

A pony bottle is another piece of gear to become entangled. So your argument is against carrying a pony?

I think you're arguing against solo diving, not against pony bottles. That's an old argument that I wouldn't want to bring into this thread. Hell I don't even want to get into it in a new thread.

For the record, I do carry two cutting tools in different locations to mitigate this risk. I also take extra care on solo dives to avoid entanglement hazards that I might risk with a buddy. My gear configuration is almost rediculously geared towards avoiding entanglement hazards, even to the point of not using boots on my tanks. I have no "danglies". So don't think that I haven't considered entanglement.

I've been entangled in kelp a few times ... up here where I dive we have bull kelp at a lot of our popular dive sites, and entanglement isn't unusual. Given time you can usually work yourself out of it without too much difficulty. But time is the key factor ... something that a pony bottle can give you that relying on a CESA won't.

Just some food for thought ... as long as you're breathing, most "emergencies" aren't emergencies at all ... they're just problems that are completely solvable underwater if you remain calm and focused on resolving them. Not being able to breathe, on the other hand, turns a lot of simple issues into emergencies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rek_diver]

In most dives, the surface is my redundant air source.

Surface air is inaccessable underwarter

There was a fatality caused by a poorly configured pony bottle configuration in one diving club where I was a member for a while. Most of the members quit using pony cylinders after that.

Would those same divers quit using a primary cylinder if there was a fatality due to poorly configured primary cylinders? If not, why not?

Dolphin dives are controversial. Perhaps you did not know this. I agree that it has little or nothing to do with the use of pony bottles. I am surprised you brought it up in this thread.

I did not know that dolphin dives are controversial although I'm not surprised because I've heard many heated debates about shark feeds, which I've also done, but so what if they're controversial? They're available, I've done them, I have no interest in doing them again but when I did do a dolphin dive, I used my 19 cf pony bottle to get an extra 10 minutes or so with the dolphins that no other divers did. I brought up the example in the context of the thread- It's just another handy use for a pony bottle- extending a dive for whatever reason, while accepting you will not have the pony bottle available as a bailout bottle until it's refilled.

 

[vam]

Just curious if you've ever actually tried a CESA from 60 feet? And have you factored in that doing a CESA during a real emergency is considerably more stressful than doing it under planned, controlled conditions? For most divers, it's not as easy as the course material makes it out to be ... in part due to the mental stress incurred in a real emergency ...

You're absolutely right about this, and it does concern me. I hope that my hypothetical OOA wouldn't be an empty lungs and mouthful of water sort of thing. A free flowing regulator gives lots of cushion. So does a busted hose. I have a hard time imaging my nightmare scenario where I can't go to my necklace reg. Maybe a catastrophic failure in the 1st stage? Maybe simultaneous entanglement and OOA?

Honestly though, this one does worry me. I still think that the chances of the nightmare scenario are slim, and other modes of failure are more forgiving. My primary 2nd stage is on a 7' hose which itself contains a lot of air to expand on the way up. In truth I've only done shallow CESAs during training. I'm almost looking forward to a real world excuse to do one, almost like the first time I lost a mask unexpectedly and was pleased at what a non-issue it was. On the other hand, a real life CESA and a lost mask are very different things.

Thanks for the correction @rek_diver. I usually finish solo dives with close to half my air remaining. That gives me more extra air than a 19 cf pony. At 500psi an AL80 contains only 13 cf remaining. At 1400psi I still have over 36 cf - a difference of over 23 cf. Again, I don't want to make this into a solo diving debate, but it isn't like I'm not thinking about these things.

 

[Wookie]

I have a great deal of respect for you, and I have found your comments to usually be very helpful, but I'm not sure I see where you're going with this.

If I'm entangled to the point where I can't swim to the surface then I can't surface. Having a pony won't fix that, but it will give me more time to struggle. Having a buddy won't fix that, but it will give me another brain, another perspective, and hopefully non-entangled hands assuming they're not tangled in the same thing as me.

A pony bottle is another piece of gear to become entangled. So your argument is against carrying a pony?

I think you're arguing against solo diving, not against pony bottles. That's an old argument that I wouldn't want to bring into this thread. Hell I don't even want to get into it in a new thread.

For the record, I do carry two cutting tools in different locations to mitigate this risk. I also take extra care on solo dives to avoid entanglement hazards that I might risk with a buddy. My gear configuration is almost rediculously geared towards avoiding entanglement hazards, even to the point of not using boots on my tanks. I have no "danglies". So don't think that I haven't considered entanglement.

I am a solo instructor, it's the only class I teach. You stated that you don't dive a pony because of the risk of entanglement. I use a pony for much the same reason, as I have been entangled at depth, had to ditch my gear, get more gear, come back for my gear, and wish I had a pony. So, your argument against a pony is about risk of entanglement. My argument for a pony is about risk of entanglement and any other number of "aw, hell, I didn't plan for that" moments.

So the question stands. How do you do a CESA while entangled?

 

[oc in az]

I was diving off Oahu and asked if could dive solo. (I'm 'Self reliant' and DM certified) The shop would not allow me to without at least a Spare Air, so I ended up with a insta buddy. Having done many solo dives in cold and warm water, I felt safe at depths around 60' on a single tank. Anyhoo, my insta buddy had a lp hose failure on his primary and was losing air fast. We were at about 60'. He remained calm, switched to his octo and we monitored his SPG. I signaled the DM that we were ok and heading for the surface / boat that was visible and close by. When we reached the surface, about 20 yards from the boat he noticed that my HP hose was bubbling a bit. The hose was less than a year old. We got to the boat and everything was fine. He was at maybe 200 psi when we shut his air off. My leak was much slower and I had about 2500 remaining. This was about 10 minutes into the dive. After this experience and thinking about potential scenarios, a 19cf pony is on my list of things to get.

For the OP, I don't see many people with pony bottles. I do see myself with one on every dive in the near future.

 

[Wookie]

I think you'll agree that redundancy is not a band-aid for unreliable gear, bad habits, or poor maintenance.

I do not agree. I absolutely think a completely redundant air source is a good substitute for your other air source, regardless of the source of failure.

 

[flyingDiver75]

I do a lot of FL panhandle diving and often hop on an open charter last minute when the weather is great. Unless I'm on a very spear fishing oriented charter headed to 100'+, I'm often the only one with a pony.

Having an AL40 and the self-reliant cert has been the difference between a 45 minute dive and 30 minute dive a number of times when insta-buddy choices were limited (mismatch of air / nitrox divers, everyone else diving AL80's instead of HP100's, diver SAC rates, etc).

 

[vam]

So the question stands. How do you do a CESA while entangled?

Like I said I can't CESA while entangled. I think I've answered your question unless you're trying to ask something else. I also said why I have more extra air than divers with a 19 cf who consume all of their usable volume of back gas. You're arguing that your risk of entanglement is lower with a pony? That's impossible. The bottle is a bulky thing, and it can be entangled.

I think that you're really arguing - and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm trying to understand - that extra air can help you out of a bad situation. I agree with you and dive accordingly. What am I missing? I honestly want to know. I'm not set in my ways - maybe I can be saved, but I don't think I'm taking any crazy risks. If I am then I will stop.

EDIT: I re-read your post about getting entangled and finding the pony useful then. If you were able to escape with a pony, then I could escape and CESA from 60' with a full breath of air to exhale on the way up. I'd even have time to turn on my light to aid in retrieval.

 

[2airishuman]

You're absolutely right about this, and it does concern me. I hope that my hypothetical OOA wouldn't be an empty lungs and mouthful of water sort of thing. A free flowing regulator gives lots of cushion. So does a busted hose. I have a hard time imaging my nightmare scenario where I can't go to my necklace reg. Maybe a catastrophic failure in the 1st stage?

Well, we've had a couple reports on SB of 1st stages failing closed at depth. We've also had one report of a cylinder valve clogging without warning due to a piece of debris falling off the cylinder wall, and a report of a dip tube clogging, apparently without much warning, due to accumulated powered rust. Poor maintenance was thought to play a role in these cases but it isn't clear to me that that was true for all of them. Those are the scenarios I'm aware of where there has been a complete, instantaneous loss of air supply. They are rare, but they do occur.

My primary 2nd stage is on a 7' hose which itself contains a lot of air to expand on the way up.

I would not encourage you to depend on this line of thinking. I believe there is less gas so liberated than you think there is.

In truth I've only done shallow CESAs during training. I'm almost looking forward to a real world excuse to do one[...]

I did one once from 20 feet when I was diving a stripped down configuration without a BC or alternate. The mouthpiece pulled off my regulator, and I made a quick decision to head for the surface rather than try to recover the regulator and breathe from it without the mouthpiece. The entire dive was shallow and I'd made a decision at the beginning of the dive that in the event of any problems I would just surface rather than try to sort things out underwater.