Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

[Lorenzoid]

After reading the story, IMO, the diver simply didn't put much forethought into his set up. That's one of the great things about ScubaBoard and those that participate... I think we're all thinking ahead and trying to figure out the best way to do things in an environment that is always trying to kill us.

Right--we're not like "all those OTHER divers."

Okay, no doubt the people participating in this thread are ahead of the pack. But still ....

Whatever happened to the adage that used to be so popular around here of "You don't know what you don't know"?

I have not attempted to figure anything out on my own because I don't pretend to have more insight than people with thousands of dives in unforgiving environments who are happy to teach me proven ways of doing things.

 

[ljpm]

Right--we're not like "all those OTHER divers."

Okay, no doubt the people participating in this thread are ahead of the pack. But still ....

Whatever happened to the adage that used to be so popular around here of "You don't know what you don't know"?

I have not attempted to figure anything out on my own because I don't pretend to have more insight than people with thousands of dives in unforgiving environments who are happy to teach me proven ways of doing things.

There are also negatives to this approach. For example, how many people wet their cam band before attaching a tank even though they have nylon bands or locking systems such as Aqua Lung BCD's. When people learn from rote then become very unwilling to accept change. For example; Why would you ever need a pony tank when you have a buddy?

 

[Wookie]

There are also negatives to this approach. For example, how many people wet their cam band before attaching a tank even though they have nylon bands or locking systems such as Aqua Lung BCD's. When people learn from rote then become very unwilling to accept change. For example; Why would you ever need a pony tank when you have a buddy?

By the same token, "Why would you leave it behind if it costs nothing to carry it?"

Would you leave your finger spool, SMB, or knife behind if your buddy had one?

 

[cneal]

Why would you ever need a pony tank when you have a buddy?

This is what the buddy system will look like when you have a problem.

 

[Diving Dubai]

Right--we're not like "all those OTHER divers."

Okay, no doubt the people participating in this thread are ahead of the pack. But still ....

Whatever happened to the adage that used to be so popular around here of "You don't know what you don't know"?

I have not attempted to figure anything out on my own because I don't pretend to have more insight than people with thousands of dives in unforgiving environments who are happy to teach me proven ways of doing things.

But, here's the rub. You have been taught, and accepted a system that sis designed around those challenging environments. The people who developed that system did so by trial and error. The error cost lives.

Your system is very good, but it's failing is that requires you to dive with another similarly trained diver or it falls apart.

If you were to dive, for example with a non GUE buddy how would you fair?, Or if you were to dive say in my local waters (warm, clearish but big currents) would your standardised system still hold up?

There have been statement made on this thread about the need for training. I somewhat agree, however if someone asks about long hose (which I personally don't see a need for in normal rec diving) you don't get teh same response, yet in my mind deploying a long hose in a stressful situation is potentially more demanding than reaching for a different reg.

As a GUE dive, you will of course regularly practice your skills, its unfortunate that others don't. I wonder how many participants on this thread would react smoothly and correctly to an OOA signal from a buddy, yet it's a basic OW skill.

I personally don't buy into the rear mounted Pony, I think it's too unwieldy, complex and failure prone. But that's my personal opinion, and I respect people's choices as long as it's thought through.

Can a pony be used to extend a dive, of course it can as long as you respect minimum gas/rock bottom pressures on that cylinder.

Learning to use a pony has been made to appear (on this thread) much harder than it actually is, although I would always encourage people to seek out proper training (either formally or informal mentoring from knowledgeable persons)

I nearly always carry a slung cylinder either a 40 or 80, I've had to rely on my pony for real to get me out of a bad situation (down current to 56m) Most if not all of the negative points raised on this thread are non issues proposed by persons with non actual experience in slinging (or rear mounted)

 

[barth]

This is what the buddy system will look like when you have a problem.

View attachment 431708

If you have a poor awareness or don't care about your buddy. And your buddy has also poor awareness it will look like that.


If you're in the same situation when you have a problem then you and your buddy accepted the situation. Everyone can tumb a dive. Everyone can improve awareness.


If you don't want to tumb a dive or improve awareness just buy a pony. ;-)

 

[Gareth J]

i haven't read the whole thread. I have dipped in and out on occasion, but refrained from posting.
Because it is continuing, I have decided to add my contribution. It may be wise - or it may be foolish, but is free, take what value you will from that.

I started diving in the 90's. I was an off the cuff decision to learn to dive, with no particular research or pre planning. I trained with PADI, which I think is fair to argue is the largest training agency.

I learn't and dived with a single 12l size cylinder, and obviously, the dives where relatively shallow, the underwater visibility was good (I learnt in the Red Sea in Israel).
When I came home (to the UK), I decided to join a local club - just to keep my hand in so I could dive when I went on holiday. Like the majority of divers I had intended to be a holiday diver.

I had no idea I would become addicted to diving.

I was soon convinced to continue my education in my new club and started on the Sports Diver qualification. I was diving in the UK. Very early on during my Sports Diver qualification one thing was very obvious, my club was unusual, most of the more experienced divers ALWAYS dived with a pony cylinder. Within 5 open water dives I saw the effect of cold water. A group of three where diving an inland quarry in the deeper section, in very low vis' and very cold water, one of them had a free flow, he went to his buddies octopus - not having a pony. By the time they reached the surface two divers where on pony's the other was on an octopus of one of his buddies.
This convinced me to buy a pony cylinder before I had completed my second diving qualification. This was before twinsets (doubles) started to reappear on the UK scene.

At one time I used to oscillate between single cylinder with pony, mainly when teaching, and a twinset. The switch to CCR a decade back means I seldom dive OC these days.
My old rule of thumb was an ascent from 20m (66ft) would be do able if on a single cylinder, with low risk of DCI.
Deeper - to 30m (99ft) a pony would suffice. Deeper than 36m a twinset was the required tool for the job.
Yes I dive a single cylinder on holiday trips, deeper than 20m. I have been know to take a side slung if particularly nervous about the dive. Generally, the conditions are warm, with good visibility.

I don't expect to see many pony cylinders, or even twinsets at holiday 'hotspots' where the majority of the diving is catering for holiday divers.

Pony cylinders do have there disadvantages. Not least is they can mess up your trim. I have seen confusion of regulators, and some one breathing the pony rather than the main cylinder.
But - I would much prefer on holiday to have the opportunity to add a pony, rather than dive a single cylinder alone.
I did many hundreds of dives with a rear mounted pony, it is an excellent compromise.

As a side, when I first started to use Nitrox, we had great difficulty in sourcing it. So we used to have air in the twin set and Nitrox 50 in an inverted rear mounted pony. We would then throw in a 10 minutes deco stop at the end of the dive on Nitrox 50 to clean out the Nitrogen (using air computers in those early days).

In short a pony is good tool. I know many couldn't or didn't want the weight of a large twinset (10 or 12 litre). I used to recommend in preference to a single and pony a 7 litre twinset. The balance was far better, better redundancy. and not to heavy. The down side is you couldn't do two dives on a set of twin 7's - so decanting was an absolute requirement, which was another complication. I still know many divers using a single 12 and a pony, they swap out the 12 for a second one between dives.

Gareth

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Your system is very good, but it's failing is that requires you to dive with another similarly trained diver or it falls apart.

I agree completely. It's the Achilles Heel. Every solution has its pros and cons. The only perfect solution is to grow gills. What's that expression?--something like "choose your own devil." In other words, of all the imperfect solutions, choose one that suits you. I really like the idea of minimalism: take only what you need. It helps maximize the feeling of freedom, which I enjoy. In my system, I need my buddy, but I enjoy diving with like-minded buddies anyway. Others may not. Incidentally, I will gladly dive with non-GUE buddies--they just have to adhere to the basic principle that we are carrying each other's spare gas on our backs and be reasonably practiced donating and receiving it. That's not asking for very much beyond how we were all taught it was supposed to work in the basic OW course. If they're a good diver, they ought to be able to do that much, which is more than I would expect them to be able to do if I were to hand them a pony reg in an emergency or expect them to hand me one. No, I won't dive with unknown insta-buddies, and that may cause me to sit some dives out. Oh well. For me, a solution that involves simply diving with a like-minded buddy wins out over carrying yet another tank on what is supposed to be a fun, enjoyable dive. We're not talking tec dives here--at least I don't think we are. (I include reg-freezing temperatures under tec dives.)

I said long ago that I would consider a pony if I were going to dive solo or something along those lines. However, the lack of standardization doesn't sit well with me, and I suppose that was the gist of my comment you were replying to. Who am I-- a relatively new diver--to experiment around to try to find out what is "best" when so many thousands of divers before me have already been working on this problem for decades? I'm not sure there is enough information out there to tell me all I need to know about incorporating a pony into my diving in a way that really does improve my safety. Maybe there is--"it's not rocket science." Maybe there isn't--"I don't know what I don't know." As someone pointed out, there isn't a lot of formal training available, and different people--even instructors--seem to have somewhat different ideas about ponies. I'm not sure what the training that is available is based on, but I get the impression it isn't based on the accumulated decades of experience of a group of highly skilled divers. Not to go around in circles here, but if anything, I get the impression that a whole lot of the really experienced, really skilled divers are not using ponies.

 

[CuzzA]

Right--we're not like "all those OTHER divers."

Okay, no doubt the people participating in this thread are ahead of the pack. But still ....

Whatever happened to the adage that used to be so popular around here of "You don't know what you don't know"?

I have not attempted to figure anything out on my own because I don't pretend to have more insight than people with thousands of dives in unforgiving environments who are happy to teach me proven ways of doing things.

I wasn't trying to sound elitist. When I decided I was going to get certified I at least knew "I didn't know what I didn't know". So before I even signed up for my course I started researching. I joined this board before I ever handed over my cash at the LDS. Why? Why not just trust the dive shop and start diving? Well, I know scuba diving is a risky avocation in a deadly environment and understood I wasn't going to be an expert after a few dives. I think training agencies over sell scuba as being safe and fun. Well, we all know that is only true for the trained diver.

So that said, if I'm going to do something different in diving, you can bet I'm gong to research the hell out of it. In fact my rig configuration pretty much was developed in a thread in the Solo Divers forum where all of the pros and cons were openly discussed.

 

[soggybadger]

I agree completely. It's the Achilles Heel. Every solution has its pros and cons. The only perfect solution is to grow gills. What's that expression?--something like "choose your own devil." In other words, of all the imperfect solutions, choose one that suits you. I really like the idea of minimalism: take only what you need. It helps maximize the feeling of freedom, which I enjoy. In my system, I need my buddy, but I enjoy diving with like-minded buddies anyway. Others may not. Incidentally, I will gladly dive with non-GUE buddies--they just have to adhere to the basic principle that we are carrying each other's spare gas on our backs and be reasonably practiced donating and receiving it. That's not asking for very much beyond how we were all taught it was supposed to work in the basic OW course. If they're a good diver, they ought to be able to do that much, which is more than I would expect them to be able to do if I were to hand them a pony reg in an emergency or expect them to hand me one. No, I won't dive with unknown insta-buddies, and that may cause me to sit some dives out. Oh well. For me, a solution that involves simply diving with a like-minded buddy wins out over carrying yet another tank on what is supposed to be a fun, enjoyable dive. We're not talking tec dives here--at least I don't think we are. (I include reg-freezing temperatures under tec dives.)

I said long ago that I would consider a pony if I were going to dive solo or something along those lines. However, the lack of standardization doesn't sit well with me, and I suppose that was the gist of my comment you were replying to. Who am I-- a relatively new diver--to experiment around to try to find out what is "best" when so many thousands of divers before me have already been working on this problem for decades? I'm not sure there is enough information out there to tell me all I need to know about incorporating a pony into my diving in a way that really does improve my safety. Maybe there is--"it's not rocket science." Maybe there isn't--"I don't know what I don't know." As someone pointed out, there isn't a lot of formal training available, and different people--even instructors--seem to have somewhat different ideas about ponies. I'm not sure what the training that is available is based on, but I get the impression it isn't based on the accumulated decades of experience of a group of highly skilled divers. Not to go around in circles here, but if anything, I get the impression that a whole lot of the really experienced, really skilled divers are not using ponies.

I agree completely. It's the Achilles Heel. Every solution has its pros and cons. The only perfect solution is to grow gills. What's that expression?--something like "choose your own devil." In other words, of all the imperfect solutions, choose one that suits you. I really like the idea of minimalism: take only what you need. It helps maximize the feeling of freedom, which I enjoy. In my system, I need my buddy, but I enjoy diving with like-minded buddies anyway. Others may not. Incidentally, I will gladly dive with non-GUE buddies--they just have to adhere to the basic principle that we are carrying each other's spare gas on our backs and be reasonably practiced donating and receiving it. That's not asking for very much beyond how we were all taught it was supposed to work in the basic OW course. If they're a good diver, they ought to be able to do that much, which is more than I would expect them to be able to do if I were to hand them a pony reg in an emergency or expect them to hand me one. No, I won't dive with unknown insta-buddies, and that may cause me to sit some dives out. Oh well. For me, a solution that involves simply diving with a like-minded buddy wins out over carrying yet another tank on what is supposed to be a fun, enjoyable dive. We're not talking tec dives here--at least I don't think we are. (I include reg-freezing temperatures under tec dives.)

I said long ago that I would consider a pony if I were going to dive solo or something along those lines. However, the lack of standardization doesn't sit well with me, and I suppose that was the gist of my comment you were replying to. Who am I-- a relatively new diver--to experiment around to try to find out what is "best" when so many thousands of divers before me have already been working on this problem for decades? I'm not sure there is enough information out there to tell me all I need to know about incorporating a pony into my diving in a way that really does improve my safety. Maybe there is--"it's not rocket science." Maybe there isn't--"I don't know what I don't know." As someone pointed out, there isn't a lot of formal training available, and different people--even instructors--seem to have somewhat different ideas about ponies. I'm not sure what the training that is available is based on, but I get the impression it isn't based on the accumulated decades of experience of a group of highly skilled divers. Not to go around in circles here, but if anything, I get the impression that a whole lot of the really experienced, really skilled divers are not using ponies.

The quarry I dive has warnings up about reg freeze at the moment and they are teaching ow and aow. Hardly tec but plenty deep enough and cold enough to die.