What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

So cave training is something that can cost you from 1200 USD to 5500 USD for full cave. As we go through instructor resumes and reviews by students, it becomes apparent that there are some very good instructors who are in the bottom of this price chain. While I have heard of bad experiences with open water training, I have really not come across a lousy cave instructor. My experience is limited but I have yet to find a cave diver who would say that I had to retake my course elsewhere because my instructor was not good. This is strange because in open water courses you will not find that level of price deviation across US but quality is all over the place. Cave diving community seems to have standardized the final output of their training much better than other branches of scuba training but they seem to be horrible in standardizing the prices. Why is that?

At least from my humble vantage point, everyone who dives deep into caves, all do some very high level dives. What would cause one to be more expensive than the other? While some organizations have strict quality control and have also built a certain legacy so there is the "brand value" and that I understand. Besides that, the time that a student spends under the instructor is not that different. the skills they learn are also not that different. The standards for passing are not that different either. Does is all come down to the legacy that the instructor perceives for him or herself? Or do some instructors pride themselves for developing unique teaching methods like special slides or videos, training drills etc?

Thanks.

 

[abnfrog]

Aziz , that is the scuba business , prices vary ALOT just because the instructor charges a lot doesn't guarantee a good course and positive results ..open water 1 does vary a little , I know an instructor who charges a high price and has more dissatisfied students than 4-5 other instructor combined yet hes a "name " and does have a following to a degree ....even was suspended from their training agency and it was keep quite...the best thing to do is ask a lot of people questions like you are doing I have for years been telling students interview your instructor ask the question like ever been suspended ? if so why ?

 

[michael-fisch]

I think you just kicked the hornet's nest, hope you are not wearing shortsleeves. There is a certain organisation that believes they are better than all others and they may be right, but they are certainly at the top end of the price scale. It's not like the quality difference is as much as between 5 Guys and McDonalds but it is noticeable, and the price certainly shows it.
At least the NSS/CDS Cave cards, and most others, don't expire if you avoid diving with an instructor for a couple of years.

Michael

 

[JohnnyC]

Daily rates are a part of it. When you're not paying for a course, you're paying for training days, the costs tend to be a little more fluid. Coupled with that, the geographical nuances you can get the same level of training to the same standards but with radically differing costs. A lot also depends on the amount of work the instructor has, and how much the market will bear. If a guy is busy 7 days a week at $350 a day, I'd say they're not charging enough. If they can't give away time in the water at $150 a day, they're probably not very good. There are places where you could be the best instructor in the world and would never be able to charge enough to survive, and others where you can be mediocre at best but there's so much work to go around you'll never go hungry.

There are bad instructors. The problem is, naming and shaming usually causes a lot more issues than it's worth. For most instructors, it's easier to just ignore the other guys and drive on, and those conversations that do happen are usually spoken about in hushed tones. Is it good for the student? Not at all, but changing the status quo is often difficult, and a lot of people think that the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Piss off the wrong person, for cause or not, and all of a sudden you can't get your tanks filled. Makes it kind of hard to be an instructor when nobody will sell you gas. There have also been cases where instructors have taken a stand and their certifying agency slaps them back down. The Italian cave course death with an ITT is a good example. A whole group of instructors raised the flag and they were all kicked out of their agency. Another incident happened in Mexico and it changed the entire agency landscape.

In the end, making waves rarely benefits the people who make their money teaching, and when you mess with someone's money, bad things happen.

 

[victorzamora]

Besides that, the time that a student spends under the instructor is not that different. the skills they learn are also not that different. The standards for passing are not that different either.

This is where your assumptions fail you.

 

[rjack321]

You need to do WAY more legwork and ask around more. There are a few absolutely terrible cave instructors, I can think of 4 off the top of my head in FL alone and a couple more remotely. Some are name brands as well.

Some examples...

1. One arrested for cocaine trafficking (haven't heard much of this person recently however)
2. One killed a student on CCR (recently)
3. One with the worst trim and most "handsy" contact with the cave I have ever seen (tons of videos of this, an active instructor)
4. One who has a huge list of debts, consistently produces mediocre students, and has bragged about how a computer failure left him solo with "no idea" how much deco he had to do. (thankfully no longer active it seems)

There have been other instructors in MX and Europe who have:

1. Been indirectly responsible for the death of a student in what amounts to a giant storm drain (fairly recent incident)
2. "Lost" a student in an advanced cave way beyond a training cave who subsequently died (a giant petition to remove this instructor resulted in the petitioners being kicked from the agency for "unprofessionalism" or something like that, the instructor who actually killed the student is still active in the agency)

I don't know where you've gotten your ideas about cave agencies - some have zero quality control. Ask harder questions.

 

[tbone1004]

@CAPTAIN SINBAD can you give some outline to the price differential and if the courses are comparable?

I.e. the $5500 sounds like GUE training, but that would include fundies, Cave 1, and Cave 2. A total of about 2 weeks of training, and goes thru decompression, stage diving, etc.
The $1500 sounds like "normal" training which does not include fundies or most of cave 2.

A better discussion would be to look at the $/day that the instructors are quoting. Solo or buddy class? Does the instructor have to travel, or are they local?

MOST instructors I've seen charge $300/day for solo class, or $200/day/student with a buddy pair.

If we look at Steve Martin, he charges $275/day/diver in Mexico. It includes gas fills *call it $40/day*, and equipment use if you don't have it.
Most Florida cave instructors are $300/day, but fills and equipment are not included. That's not a bad deal.

You need to post some more information on the costs that you're looking at, where they are, if the instructor is travelling, what the course includes, how many days, etc.

 

[JohnnyC]

"Lost" a student in an advanced cave way beyond a training cave who subsequently died (a giant petition to remove this instructor resulted in the petitioners being kicked from the agency for "unprofessionalism" or something like that, the instructor who actually killed the student is still active in the agency)

Just so everyone knows just how big a charlie foxtrot this was, the instructor responsible was an ITT, and also on the course was a guy doing his cave "IDC." The ITT is still active, and certified the other guy to teach cave. Literally, the guy responsible for killing a student is not only an instructor, but instructs other instructors, and certified a guy as an instructor that was part of a dive that killed someone. Let that sink in.

 

[rjack321]

Just so everyone knows just how big a charlie foxtrot this was, the instructor responsible was an ITT, and also on the course was a guy doing his cave "IDC." The ITT is still active, and certified the other guy to teach cave. Literally, the guy responsible for killing a student is not only an instructor, but instructs other instructors, and certified a guy as an instructor that was part of a dive that killed someone. Let that sink in.

and there were at least 50, maybe 75 names on the petition to remove him for this whole debacle

 

[abnfrog]

jhonny c and r jack are right on the money , I don't teach cave but I have great respect for those that do ....there are 3 guys I would take a course from ....a lot more I wouldn't ....I had a student come to me for a course (not cave ) he was taught by one of" the bad ones " I couldn't believe how not squared away they were till I saw his full cave card and looked at the instructor then I knew .......ask around use the names when interviewing your potential instructor . one of my agencies knew the guy was cutting coroners, but I was told right now its a bunch of guys talking ......then paperwork was produced by the instructor , it all changed .he got suspended .....hes now back .....and nobody (except a few of us know ) knows what happened