What makes one cave instructor more expensive than the other (in their own mind?)

[boulderjohn]

Here is one breakdown for your comparison. If I am comparing apples to hotdogs then let me know:

GUE:
Fundies: 875
Cave1: 2200
Cave2: 2200

Total cost = 5275

UTD:
Essentials: 650
Overhead Protocols: 875
Cave1 and Cave 2 combined: 1500
Cave 3 (Deco cave course) = 875

Total = 3900 to reach the same level as GUE Cave 2

EDD SORENSON

Cavern: 400
Intro: 400
Apprentice: 400
Cave: 400
Overhead Deco: 600

Total: 2200

I could add more but the above illustrates the overall premise of my post. These are all well reputed names up there.

The GUE and UTD courses do cost more, and they take more time. They include more information. This leads to some questions.

1. Is that extra information necessary? I was once waiting for a friend to be done with a one of the first days of a GUE Cave 1 class that had gone on all day, including a couple of dives, and was closing in on 10 hours of instruction. I watched as the instructor went into deep detail about the inner structure of an isolation manifold. You will not get that information in the introductory course of other agencies. Some would argue that beginning cave divers do not need to know about the precise inner structure of an isolation manifold unless they are planning to go into business making them.
2. Is teaching all of that helpful or harmful? If you look into interference theory in learning, you will see that too much information interferes with the learning. That is the meaning of "Less is more"--students will remember less information if they are overloaded with information than if they were given an appropriate amount of information. Modern curriculum development theory tells designers to make sure course work focuses on critical information, includes stuff that is good to know, de-emphasizes stuff that is only nice to know, and eliminates that which is not necessary.
3. How effective is student learning over such a time? I remember a cartoon in which a student raises his hand in class and asks if he can be excused because his brain was full. There is really such a thing, a time when the human mind says "I've had enough" and wanders off.

This is roughly the difference: Most agencies believe they will teach you enough to be able to dive safely within the limits of your training and then extend those limits on your own. GUE and UTD believe that you need to be trained to those higher limits with an instructor and not on your own.

 

[Superlyte27]

I like the instructors who sleep with their students. Their getting a C-card even with the extra home work.

So, I was actually accused of that one day. Tom Mount called me into question. This was a few years ago. It was really easy to contest.

Tom: First, please let me know what girl you know that would sleep with a middle aged, broke, fat guy to save $300 on class. Secondly, I've only taught 4 women to dive in my entire teaching career. Please call all of them and ask if the rumors are true.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have told students that they had to re-do cavern class before they could take my intro to cave class. Absolutely true, even though it's on the interwebs.

As a scuba instructor and a cave diver, I am allowed to teach a recreational cavern class. I will not do it for anyone who wants to go on directly to regular cave instruction, because I assume ANY instructor is going to have them redo the class. I would only do it for someone whose goal is to be safer in a cenote cavern dive.

 

[Superlyte27]

I find it telling that you use zero names. So we're supposed to ask lots of questions and do lots of legwork... And you won't name names.

And don't give me the, 'I'd do it in private but not in public!' That's gossip, not advice. Besides, when a person is just starting into cave diving (by definition: they need an instructor!), where are they supposed to get that advice if not ScubaBoard? They are highly unlikely to physically know *ANYONE* who cave dives. And they likely live a continent away.

This isn't aimed at @rjack321 specifically at all. But I think you in-the-know experienced cave divers are *REALLY* divorced from the reality that the rest of us experience. We don't live there, we don't "know" *anyone*, and there's no one who's volunteering that information to us. At *best* we might get a, "You trained with him, hunh? How'd that go..." Kinda too late then, isn't it?

@tmassey It's not very telling. Look back at my posts from 10 years ago. I was very vocal about the instructors who were doing a terrible and dangerous job. At every turn the agencies defended these guys, even to the point of trying to kick me out of my agency. I had Agency X ask me for a report. I gave the report, then Agency Y condemned me for writing something about one of their buddies. This happened over and over again. I even once posted the email I got from an agency into this forum where I was told to apologize for speaking the truth about a danger an instructor put a student in or I'd be banned from that agency.

I've taught for three agencies. All three agencies make you sign a contract that you will not publicly state anything negative regarding another instructor or agency or you will be dismissed from teaching. That's why no one ever says anything. I used to care. Now I rely on Darwin.

 

[tmassey]

The GUE and UTD courses do cost more, and they take more time. They include more information. This leads to some questions.

1. Is that extra information necessary? <Snip>
2. Is teaching all of that helpful or harmful? If you look into interference theory in learning, you will see that too much information interferes with the learning <Snip>
   
3. How effective is student learning over such a time? I remember a cartoon in which a student raises his hand in class and asks if he can be excused because his brain was full. There is really such a thing, a time when the human mind says "I've had enough" and wanders off.

This is roughly the difference: Most agencies believe they will teach you enough to be able to dive safely within the limits of your training and then extend those limits on your own. GUE and UTD believe that you need to be trained to those higher limits with an instructor and ot on your own.

Interesting. Then there's the other side. I've spent a decade receiving SCUBA instruction and feeling that it was inadequate because I wasn't asked to drink from the firehose. 'After all, a GUE class would have killed me, and this one didn't. So it's not as good.' Combine that with an emotional fear of taking the class because you're certain you won't pass it (and I wouldn't, but that might not even be the point), and it creates a very warped view.

Of course, there's the other side: there are very poor instructors. Just because my standards are too high doesn't mean that someone not living up to them actually delivered a sufficient level. (i.e. even paranoids have enemies.)

What is a poor student to do?

 

[boulderjohn]

When I did my cave training, I asked around, and I searched the discussion boards for all the threads asking for recommendations. I learned an important thing--different people are looking for different things from their instructors. I saw, for example, that one instructor was recommended for being a total hard butt. Several people praised him for his ability to swear at you articulately through his regulator. I decided I did not want that. I went instead with someone who had high standards and was able to require that I meet those standards without feeling the need to humiliate me.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Truly, this is what I hate about SCUBA instruction. Between @rjack321 's suggestion ("You need to do WAY more legwork and ask around more.") and @boulderjohn 's finding quoted above, where are we left?

This is not rhetorical. I just finished writing down my thoughts about the value of SCUBA instruction I've received in the past decade as I get ready for GUE Fundamentals at the end of the month. Literally about 20,000 words about it. And in the end, the value received was way, way below the value expected.

How is a student supposed to avoid this? Heck if I know.

EDIT to ADD: The fact that I received less value than expected was not always the fault of the instructor. Sometimes my expectations did not agree with what the class could provide. Just in case former instructors wonder what I thought was so terrible... It's not you, it's me! (20,000 words to deal with the angst of 10 years of SCUBA training. It's not pretty.)

Maybe you should start another threat to share your notes.

 

[tmassey]

Maybe you should start another threat to share your notes.

20,000 words. That's like 40-50 letter-sized single spaced pages. Like two hours to read. NO ONE should slog through that much teenage angst (made worse because I'm in my 40's) to learn simply that my perception of good and bad differ from others.

But it was *well* worth writing. I learned an awful lot.

But your subtle comment has also led me to another realization: I'm hijacking your thread. My thoughts have nothing to do with actual dollar differences between cave classes. I am *very* interested in the thought behind your premise (how can you effectively determine value of instruction *before* you take it), but I'll leave it to others to hash out.

 

[Superlyte27]

As a scuba instructor and a cave diver, I am allowed to teach a recreational cavern class. I will not do it for anyone who wants to go on directly to regular instruction, because I assume ANY instructor is going to have them redo the class. I would only do it for someone who final goal is to be safer in a cenote cavern dive.

This is agency bashing, it's just the way it is... I use PADI for example, but it could be any recreational agency.
Almost always, if a student comes to me a with a cavern card from PADI (specifically an instructor that doesn't also teach cave for another agency) he doesn't have the skills or aptitude to immediately enter the Intro to Cave class. I teach just about every class there is. The hardest class I teach is cavern. It is the foundation for everything else I teach. Buoyancy, Trim, Propulsion, and task loading while maintaining proper buoyancy trim and propulsion are all mastered in cavern class.... and if you're taking that class with me, you're likely in sidemount, backmount doubles or a rebreather. Usually, the student from PADI comes from a background in a single aluminum tank, none or little time in doubles, little time spent frog kicking, etc, etc, etc. I appreciate that you paid for the card. But I have 3 days to pass a specific set of standards, and it'll likely take longer than that to get your buoyancy and frog kick mastered. You're better off taking the proper cavern class.

 

[Superlyte27]

As a scuba instructor and a cave diver, I am allowed to teach a recreational cavern class. I will not do it for anyone who wants to go on directly to regular instruction, because I assume ANY instructor is going to have them redo the class. I would only do it for someone who final goal is to be safer in a cenote cavern dive.

I appreciate that. I had a student from another state finish Full Cave with me one week and was teaching cavern the very next week. He was a great diver, but a terrible cavern instructor. He probably had 20 cave dives total, including class. It's a bad way to go. Last month, I re-taught that student his cavern class because a year later he felt that he didn't get everything he should have had from his instructor's first ever cavern class and first ever cavern dive post Full Cave Cert.