Primary or alternate donate poll

[MrBigfins]

I am surprised at the lopsided results already. I was expecting a fairly even split. I suppose I should have eliminated tec divers from the poll as they probably fall back to the same method when rec diving. I would also venture to guess that far more divers with under 100 dives are more likely to use the alternate hose to donate.

We dive solely rec limits, and rec setup. I switched to primary donate at about 20 dives. I run a 48" primary hose, an Air2 alternate and a bungie necklace pony reg. I switched to this setup very early in my diving and make sure my buddy knows that every time. My son is normally my buddy and I have him in a similar setup minus the pony, he also informs his buddy everytime even if that buddy is me. Good habits become second nature, muscle memory can save your life when SHTF.

 

[Doby45]

Rec config : 40" hose for primary, bungeed alternate on 20" hose. You only get my primary. I always know where my regs are. My regs are identical, they both breath exactly the same and are tuned the same. I would be just as happy doing my whole dive on my bungeed backup as I would on my primary. In this config you do not get the loose dangly regs that get caught on boats when you jump off or get drug around unbeknownst to you along the reef. When you get the reg I am breathing it automatically instills in you a confidence under a stressful situation that you are getting a perfectly breathable reg. In a "proper" diving position there is no golden triangle. The golden triangle is a myth that only shows it's face when you dive with a bunch of upright, bicycle kicking, super awesome divers.

Tech : You get the longhose.

 

[rongoodman]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits though of primary donate

The benefit is supplying the stressed, possibly panicking, OOA diver with a regulator known to be working and supplying the proper gas.

Now it would seem to me, that a nice, bright yellow, UNUSED air source sitting right on a diver's chest is going to be a nicer target for someone about to suck salt water.

Unless you're approaching the donor from underneath, or he's vertical in the water, you won't be able to see that bright yellow air source because it will be lying underneath him.

 

[Jcp2]

I know that the yellow alternate is supposed to be in the triangle of the torso for secondary donate, but that’s only easily seen by an out of air diver if the donor diver is vertical trim facing the recipient. It requires an awareness on the donors part that someone needs air. Then I was taught by one instructor to hand the alternate over right side up while another instructor wanted me to raise my hands up and let the other diver see and take the alternate.

 

[Saboteur]

Furthermore, I don't buy the argument about knowing that the primary regulator is definitely functioning whereas there may be some doubt about the alternate. While I don't really do a pre-dive checklist anymore, verifying my gas is on, my BC inflates, and BOTH regs are working are done before every dive I make.

I would agree. I do think the stressed diver gets tunnel vision and may go for the easiest reg to see, the primary. The extra half second it takes to locate the alternate against the background colour and clutter on the chest probably feels like eternity to him. I don’t think they are deciding which one to take “as the primary for sure is working”. As you do, all divers better make damn sure the alternate is working before the dive. I use mine for a minute or so on every dive, there are no doubts.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

The pollster specified 'standard rec limits only' so I cast my vote for alternate based solely on this criteria.

My reasoning was that when I'm diving in this environment I'm likely teaching, guiding or having a jolly time on holiday. In the majority of these situations, the divers around me will predominantly be in standard rec garb and only familiar with alternate donate. Do I really want to add a moments confusion to their already close to panicked state of mind?

That said, I exclusively use long hose primary donate for tech and like to show OW students both arrangements so they hopefully don't become complacent during buddy checks.

 

[Esprise Me]

Let me just say that everyone who voted primary donate is wrong.
Ok. Just kidding. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits though of primary donate and why the lopsidedness.

Here's how I see it:

Primary donate:
Step 1. Donate Primary
Step 2. Put alternate in mouth

Alternate donate:
Step 1. Donate Alternate

So one huge important step not needed that doesn't remove one's own gas.

Now I've never witnessed an OOA situation so I can't speak from experience, which is why I am curious. But there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence of divers who have had an OOA diver making a beeline for the reg that's in their mouth. Now it would seem to me, that a nice, bright yellow, UNUSED air source sitting right on a diver's chest is going to be a nicer target for someone about to suck salt water. But I've never been there, so I just don't know.

I'm one of the folks who voted primary, and I'm not a tec diver, but I have had a (buddy) OOA situation, and that was a large part of the impetus for me to make the switch.

It was my second dive of the day and my 30th dive ever. I was diving from a boat off Catalina with an instabuddy with a comparable level of training and experience. We both had rental gear; it was my first day trying out the BP/W I eventually bought, and I had my octo hose looped and stuffed though my left shoulder D-ring. Previously I'd been stuffing the hose into my BC pocket, as my rental gear didn't always come with retainer clips or loops and they didn't seem to work very well anyway. We were ascending from a max depth of 75 feet, already within touching distance and face-to-face, when she gave me the OOA signal. I was surprised because I'd just checked her gauge a few seconds before and it had shown 1,000 psi. She immediately grabbed my octo, before I even had a chance to react, but the hose wasn't sliding out of the D-ring very easily. I don't know how long it took us to get it out--seconds? Fractions of a second?-- but it seemed like an eternity; by the time we did, I was already taking out my primary to give to her so she could breathe while I worked on freeing the octo.

I told this story [eta: in Near Misses at the time it happened] to get some perspective on what might have caused the incident, but I also kept thinking about what I could've done better, and how it could've gone differently. If she weren't already within reach of my octo when she'd been unable to draw breath, and had signaled while swimming toward me, I like to think I would've been quicker on the draw and pulled it out for her. But then, if she'd been farther away when it happened, or just more prone to panic, she might've just ripped the primary out of my mouth in desperation. This particular instabuddy handled the situation calmly and correctly, but on a more recent boat trip, I narrowly escaped being paired with someone who ran out of air, forgot her signals, and blamed her buddy for not reading her mind and taking care of her. I often dive with instabuddies, or with friends who have even less experience than I do or who haven't been diving in a long time, so I need to be prepared for a wide range of responses to an emergency. I always do safety checks and make sure they know where my alternate is before splashing in, but that doesn't solve the problem of all the devices and methods I've encountered for keeping octos in place either insufficient (octos work themselves free) or too effective (octos don't let go easily enough when you need them to.) For anyone who's figured it out, good for you. For me, primary donate on a long hose with a bungeed alternate feels good. I've practiced handing off my primary and switching to my octo underwater, and I do it on land before every dive to show my buddy. I haven't had another OOA situation but I feel much more confident about how I'll handle it if it happens again.

 

[Dizzi Lizzi]

Primary...I have an air2. Never have had to donate, but I always tell new buddies or buddy "group" my set up and plan

 

[formernuke]

Primary, I'm a rec diver but I'm more comfortable with a tec setup. I have done one share and was very grateful for the 7 ft hose, I'll never go back.

 

[Fastmarc]

I’M also a rec diver with no intention of becoming a tech diver that dive 40” primary donate with necklace.

Before the dive I tell them about it and how it would work while including “in case of an ooa, though that’s a highly unlikely scenario since none of us will run out of air...”. Since I also dive with a 19cf pony I also tell them that depending on how late in the dive this happened and how comfortable they look, I may offer them the pony and clip it off on them, otherwise I’ll go on it if I think my gas is not sufficient for us both to make a slow safe ascent. In a mixed diving group though I’m usually back in the boat with 1500 psi, so it’s unlikely gas will be an issue.

In regards to the “triangle”, while it is true that the second stage would not be visible if in trim, usually alternate hoses are bright yellow too and can be seen looping around the body from most angles, so if they are really looking for the “yellow” they would simply grab that I guess and hopefully it will pull free.