500 psi for two divers?

[fire_diver]

so what about divers that are not certified but have been diving many many times ? im lost ... i thought if you are not taking courses you can still dive ? i guess they wont explain how to plan a dive if you wont take any course but you can still dive ?

edited---- How do you know the other divers weren't planning their own dives?

 

[TatianaSilva]

edited---- How do you know the other divers weren't planning their own dives?

i totally agree, so i dont expect a person with a card to know everything about diving either , just because it has a card .

---------- Post added August 22nd, 2014 at 04:24 PM ----------

edited---- How do you know the other divers weren't planning their own dives?

well i guess is common sense? the ones that just dive on holidays once or twice a year im not sure they are that much into diving so they wouldnt necessarily need to know how to plan a dive. the ones i met have only been diving twice many years ago and definitely didnt know or even think about what planning a dive was. I guess people always rely on the one who knows more and has the experience ... maybe its a silly example but if you go to the doctor you wouldnt read med books to make sure the doctor was right ? you assume doctors are gonna be right , i assume a DM will know how to deal with problematic situations, that doesnt mean I dont know what to do while diving , it just means that i feel safer if theres a DM with me .

 

[boulderjohn]

well i guess is common sense? the ones that just dive on holidays once or twice a year im not sure they are that much into diving so they wouldnt necessarily need to know how to plan a dive. the ones i met have only been diving twice many years ago and definitely didnt know or even think about what planning a dive was. I guess people always rely on the one who knows more and has the experience ... maybe its a silly example but if you go to the doctor you wouldnt read med books to make sure the doctor was right ? you assume doctors are gonna be right , i assume a DM will know how to deal with problematic situations, that doesnt mean I dont know what to do while diving , it just means that i feel safer if theres a DM with me .

Everyone is supposed to be taught how to plan a dive in their OW class. It really isn't all that hard, to be honest. It is possible that you know a lot more than you think you know.

A lot of people who do all their diving in resort areas where everything is done for them, including DMs leading the dives, will forget what they were trained to do. If they are certified in those areas, in fact, that part of the training may have been downplayed. After I was certified, I did all my diving for two years in Cozumel, where things are exactly as I just described. Then I did a day of diving in south Florida. We were almost at the dive site before I figured out that no one was going to set up my equipment for me. I did that hurriedly and then realized that no one as going to lead the dive for me. I hurriedly found a buddy. (I actually joined another buddy team.) We were in a relatively shallow area, so we did not have to make any plans regarding depth. We talked about gas pressure for ascent, hopped in the water, swam around the area beneath the boat, ascended, got back in the boat, and talked about what a great dive it was. Do you have the ability to do that much planning?

 

[tursiops]

maybe its a silly example but if you go to the doctor you wouldnt read med books to make sure the doctor was right ? you assume doctors are gonna be right , i assume a DM will know how to deal with problematic situations, that doesnt mean I dont know what to do while diving , it just means that i feel safer if theres a DM with me .

But before I go to a doctor I prep myself by doing a little research on my symptoms, options, good questions to ask, etc.
And you can do that before diving with a DM, too. Kind of mentally plan your own dive (depth, time, entry/exit strategy, a few what ifs), and see how well it fits to what the DM offers. If your plan is similar, you get confidence in your planning; if it is different, ask the DM about it.

There is nothing wrong with following a DM; you will probably see more, and certainly can feel more comfortable. But it is blindly following that you are being advised against.

Hey, I had over 100 dives (and AOW) before I ever seriously planned and led a dive in a situation I was unfamiliar with. All dives prior to that had been in known water, in known situations, or with a DM. After that first one, they've gotten a lot easier! Just get some experience, take it easy, you'll do fine.

 

[TatianaSilva]

hmmm ... ok , if you put it that way... you make it sound a lot easier ! im capable of setting up equipment, do all checks, control buoyancy, etc . i know when to ascend and how but i didnt have the possibility of talking with my buddy to see how long we are down for, when to finish the dive , etc ... could have been my fault , i just was focused on breathing and amazed at everything i saw, shouting "oh my god, look at that" with the regulator in my mouth !! so yes, i will keep a eye on the planning with tables for the next dive or at least use a computer

 

[Storker]

In the new version of the course, the OW students must even plan and execute the last entire OW dive on their own, with the instructor only going along as an observer to make sure things are OK.

This has been a national requirement here for many years. My PADI OW wasn't particularly exceptional, but we had six OW dives, and we had to plan the last two ourselves, with the instructor just checking our plan and keeping an eye on us underwater. I'm quite happy we had those two dives, they prepared me for my first post-cert dives, which were independent with a buddy.

I didn't dive with a guide until I had a year's worth of diving and some 30 dives in my log. That made me able to set my own limits and not follow the guide mindlessly. Which was a good thing, because one of the dives we were offered definitely went beyond what a normal open water (or AOW) diver is prepared for.

---------- Post added August 22nd, 2014 at 06:02 PM ----------

its too soon for me to think im able to plan dives just because i have the OW

I completely disagree. IMO, you should be able to formulate and follow a simple dive plan as soon as you are given your OW cert. Several posters here have given you examples of how you plan a simple rec dive. It ain't rocket science!

 

[Imla]

Being a Norwegian like Storker, I went through the same training where our dives 5 and 6 were independently planned and executed dives. In my case, the instructor even stayed on land.

Personally, I get the feeling that you might be overly complicating "planning a dive". It does not take very much to do, and requires but a little conscious effort to be aware of your surroundings. For example:

You go on a boat and get paired up with a stranger. Listen to the briefing made by the Captain or DM for the trip. In a briefing you should get the following info:

Info of topography
Navigational tips
Depth
(and possibly info if you need to get back to the boat or not...)

Use this information to talk to your buddy. (We are a chatty bunch, and talk about the dive is ALWAYS welcome)
Agree on what to do during the dive: (i.e. photo, just looking?, target spots to get to?
Decide who does what during the dive? (If special tasks)
Make sure you both have understood the DMs briefing of the environment.

Familiarize yourself with your buddys equipment. (How to dump lead? How to get the BC off? Which Reg to get in case of emergency?)
- Do a buddycheck before splashing
Agree on a depth and time.
Make sure you know if your buddy is diving nitrox or air? And calculate a minimum number of bar/psi that you need for two divers to ascend from max depth (You have been shown this)


This can all be done whilst getting to know the other one. If you dont feel confident that the plan you have made suits the divespot, then run it by the DM. At least I would be very happy to assist if a diver right out of OW had made an attempt to make a plan!

A plan is not a very difficult thing to do, and when you get to dive more, and if you dive often at the same place, then som elements of the plan get omitted. With experience, you will also start to remember odd things like the time you can spend at 30m with 32% nitrox. Or how much air you need for two divers to get from 18m to the surface while stressed.

 

[Lorenzoid]

But before I go to a doctor I prep myself by doing a little research on my symptoms, options, good questions to ask, etc.
And you can do that before diving with a DM, too. Kind of mentally plan your own dive (depth, time, entry/exit strategy, a few what ifs), and see how well it fits to what the DM offers. If your plan is similar, you get confidence in your planning; if it is different, ask the DM about it.
. . .

This is good advice. But Tatiana, also keep in mind that it takes years of rigorous training to be a doctor, while someone can go from never having dived in their life to becoming a DM in just a few months. It takes surprisingly little to be awarded the title "divemaster" (or equivalent) by most certification agencies. When I was a new diver, I thought the DMs were practically gods, but I have learned that quite a few are actually what I would call incompetent.

Most DMs in Caribbean locations have a lot of experience--often thousands of dives and years of experience--but that by itself does not mean that every DM is capable or mindful of helping his clients stay safe. My guess is that the vast majority of doctors are capable of keeping you healthy/safe and will go to great lengths to do so, but I am not sure that is true of the "vast majority" of DMs. A DM has a natural conflict of interest in that you are hiring them to show you something interesting and maybe give you a bit of an adventure, and so it is not necessarily in their best interest to conduct the most conservative dive possible. There are many stories of DMs leading divers into situations that might be considered unsafe. There are many stories of divers losing sight of the DM and having to complete the dive on their own. It is fine to follow the DM, but it is critical to know what to do to keep yourself safe (or just to stay within your personal comfort zone) regardless of what the DM may do or not do.

 

[tbone1004]

John, the course material isn't the problem, it is the lack of quality instructors in most places. Planning a dive to 30 feet where you kick around for 15 minutes and turn around at 700 psi isn't enough of a dive plan, that would be "how to survive a scuba dive". I just skimmed through the instructor manual real quick and didn't see anything on how to plan contingency air based on divers SAC rates, compensating for your max depth, any of that. That should all be in the dive planning process and unfortunately it almost never is.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Feel free to trust the "professionals" with your life. But realize that the "fix" should they screw up (and boy do they screw up at a rate that would either amuse or terrify you)…might just be a claim by your estate.

There's an excellent chance that if things go sufficiently wrong, you won't be around to yell at them for dropping the ball. The dead don't get to post mean Yelp reviews about how the resort's DM letting them die because they're a newbie and had every reason to trust him/her merits ONE STAR!