A continuing debate on agency differences

[Walter]

"Can you share, or is it a big secret?"

Define secret. There are those who would rather no one knew the differences and will go to great lengths to keep me quiet on this issue.

It is off topic, so I don't think this is the appropriate thread to discuss it. Actually, I won't discuss it at all until the court case is settled, but you can read the differences at http://diverlink.com/newdiver/agencycomparison.htm

Hopefully, it will be settled in a few more months.

 

[kalvyn]

Walter once bubbled...
"But as far as standards go, they're all relatively equal."

Not even close.

I just looked at the Diverlink comparison page, and I would certainly recommend anyone thinking about getting certified having a look there first, as well has having the questions Mike F. posted on hand when visiting a prospective LDS for training.

I actually took private lessons (I wanted to be certified before our Maui trip, and had put off training until the last possible moment, my fault!). I did chose to train with the same NAUI instructor my wife had in her LDS classroom setting, as she had really liked him. Going over the requirements on the Diverlink page, I was taught a lot of the things that were listed as an N for NAUI. Asking my wife about it, they did the same stuff in the class setting, as well. Heck, we even practiced buddy breathing, both in the pool and as part of my check-out OW dives, and that skill is not even on that Diverlink list!

I think my (and my wife's) experience goes to show that the instructor can really make or break what one gets out of the class. I truly got the feeling that my instructor was trying to educate me, and make me a good diver, and not just taking my money and getting it over with.

One last couple of things... I see that no mask breathing is listed seperately from mask removal and replacement. Aren't they the same thing? I mean, you have to breathe while your mask is off, and that seems like no mask breathing to me. Also, we did mask swapping as a skill. That is not listed as a requirement, either. Is mask swapping not something that is normally taught?

Jimmie

 

[MechDiver]

kalvyn once bubbled...


One last couple of things... I see that no mask breathing is listed seperately from mask removal and replacement. Aren't they the same thing? I mean, you have to breathe while your mask is off, and that seems like no mask breathing to me. Also, we did mask swapping as a skill. That is not listed as a requirement, either. Is mask swapping not something that is normally taught?

Jimmie

No mask breathing lasts longer and, for some tasks, involves swimming without a mask. At least, that was the standard when I took my OW.

PADI does not do mask swapping until DM training.

MD

 

[GreenDiverDown]

kalvyn once bubbled...

I just looked at the Diverlink comparison page, and I would certainly recommend anyone thinking about getting certified having a look there first...

Well, unless the article has recently been amended, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to a prospective student.

Here's what I thought about it...almost a year ago:

Diverlink Agency Comparison Unfair?...You Bet!

I would like to offer my thoughts on the article “ Comparison of Agency Requirements for Open Water Training” that is found on the Diverlink Website. I preface these remarks with a bit of my background. I was certified as an open water diver through PADI and now am a PADI instructor. Despite my training and current professional status with PADI, I feel that I do not have a strong bias toward any particular organization. (I don’t buy the argument that because I am PADI affiliated, I must be biased toward PADI) If asked by a prospective student which agency to choose for open water certification, I would recommend any of the well-known organizations.

I would first like to commend the author for gathering the standards of the three training agencies listed in this article. I am sure that this was no easy task. I’m sure that the author made an honest effort to present the comparison of standards in an accurate manner. However, the format in which this information is presented lends itself to misinterpretation and perhaps unfair comparison. Some of the footnotes and notations within the chart itself suggest some degree of bias and I find that the author’s analysis and conclusion unsupported by the information presented in the comparison.

The author admits in his “General Explanation” the difficulties in compiling and comparing the standards of these organizations. Without guessing as to the methodology used to generate a “step-by-step listing of each requirement”, the result is a chart that is incomplete if not unintentionally misleading.

For instance, using PADI standards as an example, the following should be added to the list of requirements. (General Requirements): Liability Release, Medical Statement and History, Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding. (Scuba Requirements – Pool): SPG use/communicate air supply, pre-dive safety check, air depletion stationary, alternate air source - donor, alternate air source - receiver, air depletion/alternate air source swim with buddy, no-mask Swim - in addition to the separate skills - remove and replace mask and no mask breathing. (Open Water Requirements): pre-dive safety check, alternate air source ascent - in addition to alternate air source stationary, free descent with visual reference and free descent without visual reference - separate skills and in addition to controlled descent on line. (Classroom Topics): airway control, motion sickness, sunburn, medical examination and immunizations, pregnancy and menstruation, flying after diving, and safety stops. Most certainly some of these ‘standards’ are required by the other agencies. But which ones are not? Perhaps more ‘standards’ could be found by looking at the NAUI requirements. (I assume that the YMCA requirements are complete, given the authors background.)

I believe that a more objective approach would have been to list each agency’s standards as written by each agency independently of one another. Yet, even this approach overlooks a central issue. It is not only the ‘standard’ but the intent of the standard or as Karl Shreeves recently wrote in “The Undersea Journal”, “the course philosophy and the spirit of the standard” that is important. Further, “Instructional system standards originate as a means to structure and organize what we teach. When questions arise about how to apply that standard, you’ll usually find the answer by looking at how the student diver benefits from that standard.”*

For example, with regard to PADI’s waterskills assessment requirement for the Open Water Diver Course, the intent of the requirement is to verify that the student can swim and is “reasonably comfortable and proficient in the water to dive.” “The overall objective is for you, the instructor, to use discretion in achieving the safety goal of assuring that student divers have reasonable swimming ability while keeping the experience enjoyable and rewarding.”** Clearly the statement that “the student may complete the course without knowing how to swim” is not the intent of the standard. The real argument here is that the new option of a 300 yard swim with mask, fins, and snorkel may not support the true intent of the standard. Issues like this is one reason why there is an IDC, rather than just studying the Instructor Manual and taking a test.

As well, I find the author’s conclusion unsupported by the article. The author condemns PADI for having removed many “confidence-building skills”. It is interesting to note that the “step-by-step listing of each requirement” shows NAUI having almost twice the number of ‘deficiencies’. This includes such “confidence-building skills” as Doff and Don, Bailout and Underwater Problem Solving as well as other critical skills like No Mask Breathing and Free Flowing Regulator. The author does suggest that NAUI should improve on these ‘deficiencies’, yet the author states, “NAUI has an excellent program”. While I agree that NAUI and, for that matter, the YMCA have great programs, why is PADI painted in such a poor light? And why are some more of the outstanding things about PADI’s program not emphasized. Don’t forget about PADI’s excellent learning materials or the PADI Wheel or Recreational Dive Planner!

The author may have credible concerns with PADI’s program, some of which I fully agree. Unfortunately, the article does little to support those views. Likewise, I find that it fails in highlighting the differences between organizations. Having read this article from the point of view of a PADI instructor, I feel that I learned very little about the other programs. I would not recommend it to a prospective student wanting help on choosing an appropriate training agency, not solely because I find it misleading, but also for the fact that much of the information presented would have little meaning for the soon-to-be diver.

* Karl Shreeves “The Undersea Journal”, First Quarter 2002, “The Answer’s in the Philosophy” pp42.
** PADI Instructor Manual, Open Water Diver Course, Instructor Sequenced Skills, section 2-3.

SA

 

[Rush]

Amen !

 

[Curly]

Our LDS recently "crossed over," which I thought was an interesting development in that my first instructor was NAUI (and a Marine diver) who insisted that NAUI was better. Now the shop has had a change of heart, it appears. But, seeing as most of the instructors have been teaching for years, I can't imagine the core cirriculum will change much. I mean, OW will remain the same with these guys, as will AOW.

Sorry for the digression... Just something that's puzzled me. Any insights into the politics, etc., that would cause such a switch?

g

 

[joens]

There are 2 dive shops in my area that I visit often .1 changed from PADI to SSI about 3years ago. the other is in the process of changing from PADI to SDI/TDI .and the second one is/was a 5 star PADI shop. Granted I am only aware of one side of the story but from what I am lead to believe from the LDS side of the story I would not be surprised to see more shops switch.
Joens

 

[norcaldiver]

MechDiver once bubbled...


No mask breathing lasts longer and, for some tasks, involves swimming without a mask. At least, that was the standard when I took my OW.

PADI does not do mask swapping until DM training.

MD

And then it's only intruduced as a stress factor, not a skill per se. It's part of the full equip exchange, mask fins, scuba unit, everything gets traded while buddy breathing.

 

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
"Can you share, or is it a big secret?"

Define secret. There are those who would rather no one knew the differences and will go to great lengths to keep me quiet on this issue.

It is off topic, so I don't think this is the appropriate thread to discuss it. Actually, I won't discuss it at all until the court case is settled, but you can read the differences at http://diverlink.com/newdiver/agencycomparison.htm

Hopefully, it will be settled in a few more months.

With all due respect to your experience and professionalism, this document has been called into question for it's lack of impartiality in several places in the American scuba community, including here and in court.

Even as it stands, there are no glaring differences.

Along with Stephen Ash's point of view, this clip is from another forum (a PADI/NAUI instructor of noted accomplishment).

"Most instructors that have been aware of the comparison chart have long
believed it tends to paint a tainted picture concerning which agencies do what
and that there are several glaring pieces of misinformation. The site was a
hot topic on a email group that is largely made up of NAUI members. While you
may be able to see beyond the smoke and mirrors, and I can see beyond those
same gambits, a newcomer seeking their first taste of diving likely would not.

>Their editorial content partially echoes my
>objections, and some that you have raised, as well.

I'm really not concerned with their editorial. I more bothered by the so
called comparison of standards. The problem is the author has a background
with a particular agency. Based on that background he assumes all other
agencies list their requirements in the same manner. Unfortunately, in that he
is mistaken. When various parties have pointed this out to him he simply
became argumentative and chose to turn a deaf ear. If he took a similar
approach to the folks from PADI, I can somewhat understand their getting
fed-up."

 

[MikeS]

The only thing I would recommend the certifying agency comparison at divelink for is a case study in bias and/or sour grapes. And why is there another thread here when an entire category Padi v. Diverlink was added to discuss it?

In my opinion the quality of training is determined by the instructor not the agency.