A deceptively easy way to die

[Akimbo]

I don't think it's about diver training discouraging thinking... it just seems that it is not as self-evident to some divers as one would hope...

As an amazingly insightful US Navy Master Diver once told me after describing a complex wreck penetration:

... Young and cocky hairy-chested deep sea divers that we were, we all said "I'm in". Then he says "OK, now would you send your brother in there who is expecting his first child?" -- stunned silence. Then he says "No? Then what the hell are you going in there for?"...

Literally words to live by.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/wreck-diving/485747-wreck-penetration.html

 

[Nasser]

As an amazingly insightful US Navy Master Diver once told me after describing a complex wreck penetration:



Literally words to live by.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/wreck-diving/485747-wreck-penetration.html

Yup I remember this thread you started very well - it has a permanent bookmark saved to my computer and I refer to it often. As a matter of fact one of my posts on that very thread:

Excellent links...coincidentally I just came across this a couple of days ago while I was further researching the subject.

At this point I'm thinking that this thread should be made a "sticky"

 

[Akimbo]

Yup I remember this thread you started very well - it has a permanent bookmark saved to my computer and I refer to it often. As a matter of fact one of my posts on that very thread:

Yes, I remember and thank you. I hope that thread does not get lost on page 27 of that forum. There were a lot of excellent posts.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Some threads are worth "bumping" and resurrecting IMHO!

 

[spoolin01]

I really, really do not understand what your issue is. Really, I do not.

Not trying to get into a fight, because that's a waste of time... There are lots of data that show us when someone is presented with evidence that disproves a preconceived notion, it does not change their position... usually does not change their position.

So before you attempt to change my mind, let me explain that you will not. In my opinion, your stance is ill-advised and you will be unable to argue your way out of that. You are, in my opinion, being foolish or obtuse, or both.

In January 2014, I published a book called: Staying Alive. My reasons were pretty simple, and are stated plainly in the book's preface: basically people keep killing themselves while diving,and just maybe I can do something to help save one or two of them. In essence, it's a whole book about death, doom, ending up dead.

Funny thing is that it sells... a lot.

Other funny thing are the messages I get from average punters... people who are not technical divers, but people who are sensible, successful members of society... thanking me for writing it. The messages are different but say essentially the same thing: I had no idea how risky my behavior was and how little I knew.

Well I've tried to state my issue with facile hectoring about death, but the internet must be auto-correcting it to endorsement of deep cave penetrations with no preparation. Reading a book is a good, contemplative way to regard a subject. I'm wondering if you also found it effective to bushwhack beginning scuba divers, thrust the book in their face, and quote with relish from the really horrific passages?

You're welcome.

Doesn't hyperbole require an element of exaggeration?

Oh I don't know, maybe so little Johnny doesn't become an orphan, or a fatality himself? But no, we don't want to hurt our profit or the image of the sport. Glad you have your priorities in order.

You've had feedback from a lot of folks who don't just talk the talk. They are not internet divers. Some have recovered bodies, and lost friends and family of their own. Tread lightly please. You would be prudent to eat a slice of humble pie and learn what they are (politely) struggling to teach you.

MT

The extraordinary Johnny body count and the awesome responsibility to scold about it on the internet. Because it just might work. And it's good marketing.

"I couldn't [-]pass[/-] learn anything in my scuba class because the instructor was excessively hyperbolic. But by the end I understood that I was so stupid that instruction without liberal use of terror was just not going to work."

FIFY

 

[Bob DBF]

I could never understand why anyone could have difficulty comprehending how easy it is to get lost in a hard overhead environment and run out of breathing gas. Nothing deceptive about it and no special training is required. Does diver training discourage thinking and depend solely on memorizing rules?

Yes.

I believe that it is unfortunate that classes can be done on line, and the only instructor interaction is for pool time and the OW dives, and those may not be done by the same instructor. Where is the time for the instructor to see the student's attitude and take the time to insure he understands that diving is not just fun and games.

The big problem is that a good student, given the low bar to pass, thinks of OW training as a joke and extrapolates all training as a joke. There is little room in modern SCUBA training to fit in an attitude adjustment.



Bob

 

[gypsyjim]

..... but the internet must be auto-correcting it to endorsement of deep cave penetrations with no preparation.

I think I see the problem....

The risk is in ANY Cave penetration at all, not just Deep, without proper training and equipment.

 

[widget]

Oh I don't know, maybe so little Johnny doesn't become an orphan, or a fatality himself? But no, we don't want to hurt our profit or the image of the sport. Glad you have your priorities in order.

You've had feedback from a lot of folks who don't just talk the talk. They are not internet divers. Some have recovered bodies, and lost friends and family of their own. Tread lightly please. You would be prudent to eat a slice of humble pie and learn what they are (politely) struggling to teach you.

MT

Aaah, so I see, you know all about me. You know exactly what I have or have not done, you know how long I have been in the game or what I have seen and not seen, what I have had to endure or not endure, Gee, I am amazed, when did you learn all this.? From one internet forum post I assume. Amazing.!

You see this is the issue with internet forums, you dont know me or what I stand for or what I have done or not done, how do you know if I haven't retrieved bodies, how do you know if I haven't had to go look for lost divers, how do you know if I haven't seen the result of bent and embolised divers, how do you know if I havent lost or seen debilitating injuries of close and personal friends from diving accidents you read a post and extrapolate what you think is the jist out of it without actually knowing squat about me, and worst of all you think its okay to to compare and make snide comments about it.


Anyway, I understand this is a basic diver forum and special rules apply, I have made my point, its well defined and I stand by it, I wont belabour it further, but you Sir, I think you would do well to rather enquire and learn a bit about the person behind the post before you start making sneering remarks about their experience, personality and opinion, it may serve you well one day.

---------- Post added December 8th, 2015 at 07:35 AM ----------

Oh my no ... we wouldn't want to scare little Johnny and Mom ... better to take them out on an ill-advised dive and let one of them end up dead by virtue of doing something because they didn't know any better ... like that Mom who died on her first post OW dive did at Les Davis this past summer (it's discussed in the A&I forum) ... leaving little Johnny not only without a parent, but probably blaming himself for something that wasn't his fault.

I have never minced words about the risks of scuba diving. I have yet to have anyone frightened away from class because of my warnings about the risks. I have, on rare occasions, had someone drop out of class after an OW class dive ... and in every case, I felt it was the right decision. Not everyone should scuba dive. Not everyone who signs up for a class should be granted a certification. If giving someone a realistic assessment of the risks ... or their ability to manage the risks ... causes them to decide that scuba is not for them, I see that as a good thing ... it may well have saved their life.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yeah, Yeah, everyone jumps to worst case scenario. The reality is you run a risk walking out your front door everyday, but billions of people do it, you run a risk eating that sirloin steak tonight, you may choke, you may even die, are you now going to stop eating steak because it may save your life, doubtful, you mitigate those risks by looking left and right before crossing the street, and taking smaller bites of the steak and chewing well.

Its the same in scuba, you mitigate your risks by informed training, there is no secret formula. Sure its great to stroke our egos, scratch our chins and sagely tell everyone, "Gee this is such a dangerous sport", best you dont get involved because its beyond you or you dont have the passion for it or you dont want to further your education or whatever",.... but of course I am good to go, that goes without saying!.

The reality I would argue is almost every new student is hopelessly unprepared for their first dive, and often many dives after that, in fact with modern teaching methods I would argue many basic qualified vacation / recreational divers remain hopelessly unprepared throughout their diving lives, they do and will continue to make mistakes which "could" kill them, but you know what, millions of them continue to dive and 99.99% pop out afterwards none the worse for wear,... despite this been such a terribly "risky and dangerous game".

Most of them actually even enjoy it,... heaven forbid, we dont want that do we.!

That is the reality,....not this BS about "Oh maybe you shouldn't dive cos you may die" attitude.

Sure, someone somewhere will look at a situation, reconcile himself / herself with the risk and gamble, maybe they will die, nothing you or I can do will change that, however 99.99% of divers will heed their training and little inner voice and back away, so maybe we just need to give people more credit and cut the drama, its also not necessary.

You know what NWGratefuldiver, I dont come here a lot, because in general I find its a lot of hot air and testosterone been pumped around,..... but, by and large I have always considered your posts as one of the few which were levelheaded and well thought out, I am rather surprised you have succumbed to the general Scubaboard malaise of "only I can do this well, so best you dont dive, you may die" attitude.

 

[spoolin01]

I think I see the problem....

The risk is in ANY Cave penetration at all, not just Deep, without proper training and equipment.

<...He's just being ironic.... He's just being ironic.... Please lord, give me irony just this one time.>

 

[kr2y5]

<...He's just being ironic.... He's just being ironic.... Please lord, give me irony just this one time.>

I, for one, do not really understand what point you are trying to make... how about starting simple... if you were to use just one word to describe how you feel about this video, what would it be? Unnecessary? Harmful? Pointless? Something else?