Accident Analysis for recreational diving?

[Mako Mark]

I IMO, we need detailed analysis and it needs to be shoved in divers faces from the moment they begin training. We need to stop with the "In the unlikely event that..." .

Sorry to digress in to rec stuff. Just delete it if you want.

I think you have an interesting point here Mike, and I feel a new thread coming on.

Accident analysis is what changed Cave diving from fringe lunacy into what is seen today as acceptable risk for an adventure sport. The lessons we learn from the limits of that safety do and should flow backwards into the basic levels, I think that is why there is a blurring of the line between tec and rec. GUE are leaders in saying lets start off on the right foot, I trully believe that others will follow.

Promotion of accident analysis to the masses, many will say is bad for marketiing a business that is difficult to make a living in anyway, the answer should be that hiding it is a short sighted temporary solution. Solving it is for the longer term benifit.

(can a mod split this out into a new thread and keep this one about the peacock accident)

 

[simbrooks]

At Mark's request i have split this off the "Death at Peacock Springs" thread. We were discussing accident analysis in relation to the death that occured at PS and how using such a tool, or in fact what kind of problems have come up that have caused accidents (near misses or actual deaths) in recreational diving. In AA we have 5 main rules:
1. Training - you should not dive beyond your training or experience
2. Guideline - you should have a continuous guideline that runs to the OW
3. Air - you should reserve a minimum of 2/3's of your gas for exiting (more if in a siphon, scootering and various other conditions)
4. Depth - diving restricted to 130ft (although with modern mixes i think this has been changed to 130 END and of course allowing for greater gas consumption with depth)
5. Lights - dive with at least 3 lights (in cavern one of these is assumed to be daylight)

These causes of deaths and near misses are from a review and statistical analysis of contributing causes surmised from reports of the survivors or those who recovered the bodies. These rules are considered the basics of cavern and cave diving training and required study for such course through a variety of agencies.

What do you all feel are the main issues when it comes to recreational diving?

 

[verona]

In the UK, BSAC publish and annual incident report which includes limited analysis of incidents. The latest one was published in November 2004 and can be read here:

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/increp04/intro.htm

Same themes come up year on year. Training is a biggie.

 

[pilot fish]

I think you have an interesting point here Mike, and I feel a new thread coming on.

Accident analysis is what changed Cave diving from fringe lunacy into what is seen today as acceptable risk for an adventure sport. The lessons we learn from the limits of that safety do and should flow backwards into the basic levels, I think that is why there is a blurring of the line between tec and rec. GUE are leaders in saying lets start off on the right foot, I trully believe that others will follow.

Promotion of accident analysis to the masses, many will say is bad for marketiing a business that is difficult to make a living in anyway, the answer should be that hiding it is a short sighted temporary solution. Solving it is for the longer term benifit.

(can a mod split this out into a new thread and keep this one about the peacock accident)

Is this only referring to cave diving only, or any diving accidents?

 

[pennypue]

As a newbie that's still quite green off the tree, I think it really helps to see the analysis. Even if, and especially if, all the facts aren't know. I know that speculation can hurt the loved ones. But each scenario that is speculated usually tells me something additional. Gives me another option for what COULD go wrong and hopefully points out what could have been done to prevent it. I think that going merely just saying a diver was "beyond their training". Is of no real use to me. What would their training have taught them. I'm not stupid enough to believe that it is a substitution for training. It acts as a further enticement for me to get additional training.

It also helps me to determine, do I want to get into cave diving? How deep do I want to go? Do I want to dive doubles some day? Do I want to do deco? I have to evaluate the risk/rewards and since the ultimate risk is my life I'd like to examine those cases that took lives.

If I die diving, I want ya'll to pick me to bits. Discuss if my lack of snorkel or choice of fin caused my demise. Was it those bright colors I was wearing, should I have been wearing head to toe black? Ok, so those are silly examples, but you get the idea that way.

I want to learn from other people's mistakes. I'm not a cat, I don't HAVE nine lives. I gotta get it right with this one.

 

[Buoyant1]

I totally agree! My wife asks me "why do you read those books on the Andrea Doria, Last Dive, Shadow Diver etc... (and watch Open Water) All those people died diving, don't you want the positive 'happy ending' stuff?"

NO!

I want to see what CAN go wrong and see what people have done to prevent it (or what people talked about after they made their mistake, or had the misfortune of fate)

Anything I read about what someone did wrong, makes it cognizant in my mind, so I don't make the same mistake.

Anytime I make a mistake (diving or otherwise) I want to learn from it, and if someone else makes it first, I'll STILL get something from it!

Keep this kind of stuff coming! This isn't the "media" which blows everything out of proportion, it's real life!

(oh...and go read the Tsunami thread...it may never happen again..but better to know what others have experienced in case it does!)

As a newbie that's still quite green off the tree,

snip...

I want to learn from other people's mistakes. I'm not a cat, I don't HAVE nine lives. I gotta get it right with this one.

 

[r37691]

I agree,
I also think that : In the likely event _____happens to you is not adequate.
Certain training organizations want to make everything happy with no negative or ill effects at all what so ever.
During my (Insert Generic Organization Here) IDC, the CD assigned me DCS as a topic. Needless to say, I failed my first presentation. I made getting DCS too negative of a thing.
"Since we have to compete with other sports such as golf, etc... we just cannot tolerate any sort of negativity. You have to turn everything into a positive."

Anyone want to turn getting DCS into a positive?

BTW: I didn't say you were going to: DIE, or anything like that. Just ems/evac is needed for patients suffering from DCS, & that an o2 DAN course could help you treat the patient.

But, even though DAN's o2 course is a distinctive specialty; I lost points, Because it was not a (Generic organization's Class).

I did not finish the IDC with that shop.

Now, here's another example:

About as stupid as:
Skill: R&R a fully flooded mask
Value: If you take you mask off for fun; To know how to put it back on & clear it.
Real: When some idiot on the dive isn't aware that you are there and kicks your mask off @ 85' you need to know how to recover and clear it.
Too scary I know. I did not use that as one of my values for learning the skill.
I used the fun one & got a 4.8 out of 5.0 If I would've used real, I would have failed for being too negative.

I apologize for the long rant.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Now, here's another example:

About as stupid as:
Skill: R&R a fully flooded mask
Value: If you take you mask off for fun; To know how to put it back on & clear it.
Real: When some idiot on the dive isn't aware that you are there and kicks your mask off @ 85' you need to know how to recover and clear it.
Too scary I know. I did not use that as one of my values for learning the skill.
I used the fun one & got a 4.8 out of 5.0 If I would've used real, I would have failed for being too negative.

I apologize for the long rant.

LOL...or..."when you flood your mask because you were laughing..." instead of telling them that some bozo is gonna kick it sideways on your face and not only will you have to clear it but your nose will be swelling when you do it.

I don't think we need to make it overly scary but it should be realistic. Regs free flow when there's not bottom to kneel on, mask straps break, A freind of mine even had a mask lens shatter. Little things like that rattle and distract people and get them to make other mistakes like not controling depth and shooting to the surface on purpose or an accident. That's the accident chain of events or snowball effect that we talk about but not every one is taught it in training. It's almost never one big thing that gets some one. It's a little thing that causes another little thing that causes another untill it all falls apart.

 

[AmyJ]

Yes, yes and yes. I have always wanted to dive and while I was talking SO into it, we were reading and researching.... read last dive... fatal depths and others. We were appalled at the lack of info given in OW class... even very general, generic light hearted truth was missing. We would ask questions and were told not to ask or discuss such things as DCS in front of the other students. Don't misunderstand, we were new too, still uninformed and not asking anything too scary at all... just some basics. Needless to say.. that was the first and last class with that LDS.

 

[simbrooks]

I can understand the not wanting to put a negative spin on things - profit and repeat business are at the heart of how many of the agencies get by, of course this isnt really a thread about agencies - when we state training in AA, its about whether someone had the type of course to do the types of dives they had the problem with, ie cavern or cave trained or not in anyway - the same would be true of OW, deeper diving, rescue cert'd or whatever. BSAC and DAN both seem to put out stats, i dont know how detailed these thigns are and whether they can really help improve the way we all dive - if they are too general or not.

The way AA seems to work, is without names, but with locations, the events of the dives are replayed to see where the first, second, third and any further snowballing events started and if there are rules that can be put together to prevent such things happening again!