Advice Needed buying reg

[sharthen]

I got some cash and a couple Leisure Pro gift cert for Christmas and want to buy a new reg (currently have a SP MK2/R190 w/ R190 octo). I am currently looking at:
Poseidon Jetstream/Odin $350
ScubaPro MK25/s600 $385
Apeks ATX50 $365
Now i can not currently afford a new octo so I will be using my SP R190 oct for now along with my zeagle gauges.
About Me: 50+ plus dives most in Nebraska/Iowa quarries with 15 foot viz w/ temps between 50 and 80 degree water. I dive saltwater (usually above 70 degrees) on vacation. I am currently SSI AOW and plan to eventually do some decon diving in a few years once I have more experience and training. Also a trip to the Great Lakes to dive is not out of the question in the next couple years, so I do have some concerns about cold water diving especially since i have hit 50 degrees at 80 feet in Iowa on a 95 degree day in late July. I basically want a versatile reg that breaths very nice at all depths that I can use my R190 Octo on and that I can use for decon diving later. And by decon diving I don't mean deep deep diving more like being able to dive to 130-140 feet with out having to turn around and go right back up.

 

[LUBOLD8431]

Well, I have never heard of DECON diving, but any of those regs would work well for any type of diving you are going to do. If you like Scubapro, stick with them, or if you want a little bit better cold water reg, go with the Apeks.

(BTW, I think you mean DECO diving, short for DECOMPRESSION)...

 

[rdriver]

I second that apeks vote!

 

[lhpdiver]

I bought a MK25/S600 setup from LeisurePro in early Dec. for about $50 less. My LDS (PADI) wanted to sell me an apeks (200 ?) and I thought hard about it but I was replacing my first ScubaPro reg which I purchased in 1973 (ok - it did spend 10 years in the closet - but stilll - how many things work after 30 years ?). This weekend I visited my LDS (IANTD) and while getting my fills I asked what equipment I'd need for his tech class. When I recited my stuff ( ScubaPro classic BC, AL tanks etc) he said "well you can use your regs" :->

 

[Genesis]

Of the ones you listed, either Apeks or SP.

Investigate CLOSELY policies and procedures on service and parts. MOST manufacturers will void your "free parts for life" deal if you don't meet their service intervals, and for firsts in particular, assuming you take good care of your gear and don't get contaminated gas in them, some of those intervals are, uh, aggressive for the average diver's use.

Since the labor costs are VASTLY more than the parts for virtually ANY reg, this is a very big deal. If you're buying unncessary service, you're handing money over to a dive shop for no purpose.

Unfortunately there IS a big difference in required service intervals depending on how often you use it, how well you take care of it, etc. The manufacturers set "one size fits all" requirements, but one size DOES NOT fit all. If you're one of the folks who has LESS severe service than their "baseline" was computed against, you are spending a lot of money to keep a "free parts" service policy in force for no reason - and its not at all uncommon to be spending $30-50 a stage so you can get $10 worth of parts free! While that's ok if you NEED the overhaul, its NOT ok if you don't.

There is no real reason why manfacturers would void their free parts deal if you didn't keep their service schedule (think about it - longer intervals means fewer parts they give away) EXCEPT for their knowledge that like all things that must be done over a long period of time, but on time, many people will "miss" and thus void their agreements, thus letting the manufacturer "out" of their obligation. This is very similar to the "mail in rebate" deals - the manufacturers know damn good and well that a huge percentage of those rebates will NEVER be redeemed, as the customer will either forget until after time has expired or will lose the receipt, etc.

Whether you wish to be part of such a scheme is up to you.

For my money, I decided to use regs where I could source the parts myself and give the finger to the games the manfuacturers play. Regs are really not very complicated; if you can fix your kitchen faucet without flooding your house, or replace a ballcock in your toilet without ending up with 6" of water in your bathroom, you can handle it.

YMMV of course.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I'd go with the Scubapro reg. Scubapro has a long history of standing behind it's regs in terms of parts and service support for decades. Aqualung has a similar history that is almost as good but from that point on no one else even comes close.

In lake Superior it's not uncommon to find water around 34 degrees if you go much deeper than 50 ft even during the summer so cold water is a serious issue. The MK 25 will work ok if you are using low pressure tanks and are careful not to huff excessive amounts of air but it is not bullet proof.

You could also consider a Mk 16 for cold water diving. Scubapro considers it to be its medium grade first stage and packages it with its mid grade second stages (R380 and S550). However, despite how they are marketed and advertised, you can actually get any second stage with a Mk 16. A MK 16 with a G250 or X650 would make a great cold water reg. The MK 16 still offers more than enough performance for the diving you are talking about and has a lot more room in terms of freeze protection in cold water than the Mk 25. Of course to get one packaged this way you'd have to go througha dealer but in the end you'll save money on parts at annula service intervals.

Now as Genesis says, companies normally require an annual service to keep the warranty valid Scubapro is no different in this regard. Unlike most other companies they also offer free parts as long as the warranty is kept valid.

The Scubapro dealer will keep a copy of the service slip on file and will send a reminder to you a month or so before it is due. They will also give you a copy of the slip to present to another dealer if you leave the area. There is no firm cut off date as to when the next service is considered late as it is a dealer discretion issue. If you are a good customer, the dealer can give you a lot of slack as Scubapro itself does not keep track who got what serviced when and will just send the parts required to the dealer free of charge no questions asked. On the one hand the dealer does not want to abuse the policy, but on the other they are able to look after their good cutomers who may have missed the annual service for whatever reason.

Scubapro is also different in that it will reinstate warranties. If you take a few years off from diving and skip a few (or 20) annual services, a Scubapro dealer can still reinstate your warranty for you. All that is needed is your copy of the last service slip, or a call to your previous dealer, or a copy of your warranty cards, or a sales slip showing you were the original owner and bought it from an authorized dealer. At that point you will need to pay for any new parts required that year but from that point on will again be under warranty with free parts for subsequent annual services. I have fallen into this category and have both been charged for parts by a dealer and not been charged for parts by a different dealer. It often comes down to the good customer thing again. In my experience, most will try to work to get you a good deal to keep your business if you routinely spend money in the shop.

 

[Genesis]

I'd go with the Scubapro reg. Scubapro has a long history of standing behind it's regs in terms of parts and service support for decades. Aqualung has a similar history that is almost as good but from that point on no one else even comes close.

In lake Superior it's not uncommon to find water around 34 degrees if you go much deeper than 50 ft even during the summer so cold water is a serious issue. The MK 25 will work ok if you are using low pressure tanks and are careful not to huff excessive amounts of air but it is not bullet proof.

You could also consider a Mk 16 for cold water diving. Scubapro considers it to be its medium grade first stage and packages it with its mid grade second stages (R380 and S550). However, despite how they are marketed and advertised, you can actually get any second stage with a Mk 16. A MK 16 with a G250 or X650 would make a great cold water reg. The MK 16 still offers more than enough performance for the diving you are talking about and has a lot more room in terms of freeze protection in cold water than the Mk 25.

Not me.

If you're going to dive in water below about 50F I would not consider ANY of the SP regs.

IMHO the only good regs SP makes are the pistons. I wouldn't own one of their diaphram regs, nor would I dive one. I know people who do and are happy, but I also know people who have and aren't.

IMHO the Mk10 and Mk10+ were the two best pistons SP ever made. Everything since then has been too damn gimmicky for me. I can deal with the MK20/25s, but I don't believe one word of the "anti-freeze" crap they throw around. I am willing to bet I can provoke a freeze on ANY of these regs in water under 50F, and no, I won't do it at 100'!

If you're going to dive cold water, get the Apeks. The DS4 or DSTs are sealed, balanced diaphrams. So long as there is no water vapor in your gas (the dewpoint is low enough in the tank) you can full-blow purges on them for 20 minutes at a crack in 33F water and they will not freeze. The first stage will be encased in a big ball of ice, but the reg will still work. Why? Because there's no way for water to get inside, freeze and stick up the works.

With that said I dive SP Mk10s and 25s - but I don't dive water under 50F. If I ever intend to do so, I will buy myself a couple of DS4s and be done with it. The existing G250 seconds I have will work just fine with them.

The original poster specified that his lower water temperature limit that he expected to encounter was 50F. I have no problem with SP regs down to that temperature. Below that, I would not dive them, protestations from SP about their "anti-freeze" systems notwithstanding.

 

[truva]

Get ready to get flamed though by those that cannot understand the design difference and only see the brand.

Truva

 

[Genesis]

Heh, anyone who thinks they have a great SP piston reg for cold water and who believes the hype about "anti-freeze" is welcome to give me some warning and bring it down here in the next month or two.

See, I have a pool. If I disable solar heating, it will drop into the 40s in a couple of days. I will chuck it on a tank, toss it in the pool with the purge locked on at the surface, and turn on the valve.

We'll let it blow for 2-3 minutes, then let go of the button and see what happens

I can refill the tank easily and cheaply enough, and it will likely dissuade any of you who see that demo from wanting to dive one of those regs in cold water

I'll even take a friendly wager (a beer at the local pub?) on the results - but you have to take the "you can't make it freeze" side of the wager.....

Be prepared to fork over the suds

(PS: No cheating allowed - cheating is defined as putting in the old "environmental kit" - aka filling the chamber with silicone or Christolube!)

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Well shoot, I hate to admit it but I managed to freeze up a Mk 10 on an 34 degree dive this winter. Mostly due to a leaky dry suit inflator valve, but still I felt violated that one of my trusty Mk 10's (actually a Mk 10 Plus) froze up on me. This would be one freeze up in two decades of cold water diving. In its defense the IP was at the upper limit with no shims with a swing to 145 psi and a "normal" creep to 150psi. and I was already looking for a new softer spring to get it down to around 125 psi. The freeze up was especially odd and unexpected considering that in the past I have inflated 200 lb lift bags in one shot at 100 ft in 40 degree water with a Mk 10 with no freeze ups.

I also dove a MK 25 all summer in water temps as low as 39 degrees at depths of 150 ft with a low pressure tank and had no problems at all. The average water temps at depth ran about 45 degrees.

So I am no longer a believer in the infallibility of a SPEC equipped MK 10 but at the same time I do have a fair degree of faith in the MK 20/25.

That said I have a Mk15 with a SPEC kit and have noted the same swivel cap is used on my two early production Mk 20's. They will shortly be getting new composite pistons and the full AF kit and will then be tried experimentally with silicone filled environmental chambers and Mk 15 SPEC boots to keep the silicone inside where it belongs. I expect these should make excellent (but totally non SP approved) cold water regs.

And I am shooting for a sustained freeflow test on a stage bottle in the local 34 degree water this weekend (assuming the current sub zero weather does not completely ice over my destination lake.)