Air?

[tcarr53]

The Friday edition of the Ottawa Sun Page 4 has some eye opening news, remember the post several months ago? Stay tuned more to come, hope all the stores are up to the provincial standard!
www.ottawasun.com Article reads"Protective gear fails firefighters"

 

[seahunter]

I have filled the SCBA units for several fire departments for many years and done a lot of their tank service work too.
It may be hard to believe but, while the fighters are very cautious when dealing with the public, they have often had a cavalier attitude about their own gear.
Recently the new captain of a volunteer dept brought their tanks to me to be cleaned and painted. They had not been tested in many years. He didn't even know that they had to be hydro tested nor that they should be visually examined as well.
This article in the Ottawa Sun should certainly upset their fighters but really doesn't affect SCUBA divers much as our air and tanks have been the object of rigorous standards and testing for a long time.
It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time.

 

[Bubble Boy]

seahunter once bubbled...
I have filled the SCBA units for several fire departments for many years and done a lot of their tank service work too.
It may be hard to believe but, while the fighters are very cautious when dealing with the public, they have often had a cavalier attitude about their own gear.
Recently the new captain of a volunteer dept brought their tanks to me to be cleaned and painted. They had not been tested in many years. He didn't even know that they had to be hydro tested nor that they should be visually examined as well.
This article in the Ottawa Sun should certainly upset their fighters but really doesn't affect SCUBA divers much as our air and tanks have been the object of rigorous standards and testing for a long time.
It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time.

Bad air is still common in dive shops in Ontario. NFPA requires eddy current testing and in another thread you mentioned that you got rid of your unit. Dive shop staff is not trained in the standards for SCBA and that is just one of many reasons why Ontario dive shops should not touch SCBA in the first place.

 

[bottles]

Did an internet search on this and found a page
www.ontariodiver.com/sales.htm shows a listing of testing and accredited air stations that are approved for divers and fire departments. To the new standards for breathing air.

 

[taz22]

bottles once bubbled...
Did an internet search on this and found a page
www.ontariodiver.com/sales.htm shows a listing of testing and accredited air stations that are approved for divers and fire departments. To the new standards for breathing air.

must not be publicized very well, a number of properly accrediated air stations ( my own personal knowledge for having seen the proper paper work ) are not on this list.

 

[seahunter]

May I respectfully suggest that until very recently, many fire departments would not have had air for fighting fires were it not for some dive shops. While an untrained scuba store owner should not consider servicing SCBA, the training is not much different than for scuba. In fact, Bill High of PSI Inc. includes the inspecting of SCBA units in the PSI course.
I learned to service SCBA tanks, valves and regulators a long time ago. It was never done to make money but to provide a service to the fire department. Most now have their own compressers and get the manufacturer to sevice the gear and that's just fine by me. It was interesting a few years back when the Richmond Hill fire department replaced a lot of their old 2150 psi Scott bottles with 4500 psi bottles but couldn't fill them. I did it for them for about 1 1/2 years until they had their new compressor.
Generally you're right in saying that dive shop staff should not service SCBA under the assumption they are the same as scuba.

I have seen nothing from the NFPA to indicate that Vis Ed is required. If so, it would be an interesting situation since the manufacturer does not require it. Generally for liability reasons the NFPA will not step outside the requirements of the manufacturer. Most SCBA bottles that I've seen are not aluminum or, if they are, do not fall into the category for which Vis Ed might be suggested.
I got rid of my Vis Ed because it did nothing for the safety of the divers. I wasn't prepared to charge for a service that was bogus!

The list on the small scuba club's web site is hardly definitive bubbles. First the list is only for the few local stores in their area and second the standards the club has chosen to use or is required to follow by virtue of their relationship to the forces do not apply to dive stores that supply breathing air for scuba divers.
Currently there is no 'list' of approved air stations since no single body 'approves' air stations. It is the responsibility of each individual air station to ensure the quality of it's air and it can use any registered testing service it likes. Therefore you need to see the certificate posted (or ask for it if it's not posted). You can then see the date and the quality of the air you're getting. A proper air certificate shows the required CSA Breathing Air Standards and also shows the air station's standards so you can compare them. There is no other way nor any other 'list'.

If in fact bad air is still common in dive shops in Ontario may I make two suggestions?
1. Give us their names so we can alert the store and the divers. If you are aware of dive stores giving bad air and DON'T alert the divers you may find yourself liable. Certainly you're no friend of the divers! If you've not the stomach to tell us publicly, call the Ministry of Labor and do it anonymously. It's a crummy thing to do but it's better for you to act cowardly than not act at all.
I certainly hope your statement that 'bad air is common in dive shops in Ontario' is not simply alarmist. I'm painfully aware of the tragedies resulting from such McCarthiestic comments in the past and have no use for someone trying to make a name for themselves at someone else's expense.
Speak up or shut up!
2. Scuba instructors are not doing their job. New divers should be aware of how to check for good air at a store as described above.

 

[pufferfish]

Seahunter,

Since you have been on the dive scene for a few years do you know or recommend any CO monitors available for testing air? There was one product available a few years back by Seaway Engineering but they seem to have gone belly up. I was hoping to find a reliable, portable, and quantitative device. Not so much for testing air in Ontario but in Central America usually off the beaten path. Were the previous ones just too expensive or unreliable such that they have disappeared off the market?

Thanks,
Puffer

 

[tcarr53]

I think you maybe wrong SeaHunter, there is a provincial standard set out by the Ministry of Labour.
All air suppliers who provide air for their staff whether paid or not must meet the standard which is CSA Z 180.1 unless your air is tested by an accredited lab who can test to these standards you are breaking provincial labour laws, these laws do not apply to only those who are commercial dive operations.
If the air certificate you have doesn't say it meets or exceeds z180.1 then in this province if you the owner or your instuctional staff are using that air you are breaking the law!
I don't think anyone on this board are foolish enough to think a scuba shop provides approvred air for staff and different air for customers, the Z180.1 tests are expensive and stricter than standards set out by Padi or the American standard.
Also in the article it clearly states that some of the contamination may have come from outside providers who claim to have air that passes one test or another, but when some samples were obtained for independant testing they failed the basic air test and were no where near meeting z180.1
Also for your own knowledge SeaHunter the F.S.A.C. is a very large club with probably between 250-300 members.

 

[SneakyB'tard]

It would be easier for you (TCARR53) to post the links to these statutes and legislations for your opposition to see.

"It was very common at one time but I've not heard of a 'bad' air incident in a long, long time."

- we should be all educated enough by now to know that some ailments and symptoms of "bad air" are not immediate but long term. Because of this, bad air is usually not pegged as the cause of the ailment.


If you are aware of the legislation you are culpable.

"The rule that you are to love your neighbour becomes in law, you must not injure your neighbour. You must take reasonable care to avoid acts or ommisions which you can reasonably foresee would be likely to injure your neighbour." (Donoghue vs. Stevenson, Cdn Case Law.)

"Negligence is the omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided upon those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do, or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. The defendants might have been liable for negligence, if, unintentionally, they omitted to do that which a reasonable person would have done, or did that which a person taking reasonable precautions would not have done."

Criminal Negligence
Criminal negligence
219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who

(a) in doing anything, or

(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,

shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.

Definition of "duty"
(2) For the purposes of this section, "duty" means a duty imposed by law

- This string always brings up loud defenders of their actions...this is due to the old saying a guilty man puts forward the loudest case.

 

[pufferfish]

I dug out my old DAN Diver Alert magazines (they were a lot nicer in design back then) and found the article on CO
detectors written by Robert Rossier the ex-NASA and US Navy engineer. "Divine Intervention" Alert Diver May/June
1998.

I remember being quite amazed at some of the quotes in that article. For example, "According to Bob Laughlin, lab director
at Lawrence Factor Inc. in Miami Lakes, Fla., about 5 to 8 percent of the 700 to 800 air station samples tested a month show
CO in the 10 to 20 ppm range, and a few show levels in the 100 to 200 ppm. Another major test facility, TRI Environmental
Inc./Compressed Air Laboratory in Austin, Texas tests about 1,000 air samples a month and reports 6 percent of their
samples contain CO at more than 10 ppm.
Although not required by law in most states, most air stations in the USA submit to quarterly testing for carbon monoxide and
other contaminants, but what happens between tests is anybody's guess."

I find those numbers a little worrisome and those are in a litigious country where the incentive to provide clean air should
be very high. As the author points out we have no idea as to the scope of the problem as "air isn't routinely tested in diving
injury investigations."

Are Ontario shops obliged to get their air checked for CO quarterly? Can we ask to see these tests?

Can anybody recommend a CO monitor that I can take on my next trip to Nicaragua?