Air3 on BP/W setup

[DevonDiver]

Crazily enough, none of us are dead while diving with such configuration.

Is that a qualified statistical claim? Zero fatalities on SS1/Air2 ?

 

[hg frogman]

1) Since that certain people like to make spurious comments, I figured that I'd do the same.

2) I really don't understand what's so hard about breathing and venting from an inline octo? You can breath and hit the vent button at the same time. The air will vent out from the BC just fine. No need for another shoulder dump.

3) Believe it or not, many of us divers couldn't care less about Hogarthian configuration or diving. We like the inline octo and we like split fins. Crazily enough, none of us are dead while diving with such configuration.

1) You are welcome (sincerely ).

2) Maybe you're right and I am over-estimating the difficulty of using the Air2 as you say. That's possible (I have an Air2 on one of my set-ups but I don't use it often).

3) I understand why divers don't give a damn about Hog setups or whatever, but actually DA Aquamaster concluded -- if I understood him right -- after a thorough discussion about minimalism that for him, when used with a wing with a fenstop, Air2s were OK for recreational diving, even from a Hogarthian perspective .

 

[fnfalman]

Is that a qualified statistical claim? Zero fatalities on SS1/Air2 ?

Well, I ain't dead and neither is my buddy who uses the same thing. I think that's a qualified statistical claim for "we".

Do you have any qualified statistical claim as to those who use the long hose/short hose configuration are safer and don't suffer fatalities?

 

[fnfalman]

3) I understand why divers don't give a damn about Hog setups or whatever, but actually DA Aquamaster concluded -- if I understood him right -- after a thorough discussion about minimalism that for him, when used with a wing with a fenstop, Air2s were OK for recreational diving, even from a Hogarthian perspective .

I don't know of too many manufacturers claim that inline octo is suitable for fancy penetration dives.

You don't need a Mercedes UNIMOG to go grocery shopping at the store down the street with paved road. You don't need an AK-47 to go deer hunting and you definitely don't need a Hog harness or a long hose/short hose setup to go rec diving.

The correct tools for the correct jobs. It's that simple and I don't understand why (not you) other people can't simply see it.

 

[danvolker]

I don't know of too many manufacturers claim that inline octo is suitable for fancy penetration dives.

You don't need a Mercedes UNIMOG to go grocery shopping at the store down the street with paved road. You don't need an AK-47 to go deer hunting and you definitely don't need a Hog harness or a long hose/short hose setup to go rec diving.

The correct tools for the correct jobs. It's that simple and I don't understand why (not you) other people can't simply see it.

So you choose a spare Air to use "Bay Watch" style, and enjoy this for swimming pools and the occaisional outing to a 15 foot deep, well protected coral reef. It may be a fine tool for this job, god knows it did well for the Baywatch crew

However, if after a time, you decide to take your diving adventures up a notch, and visit some more exotic locale to dive, one with 60 foot or even 90 foot depths, the "tool" you have been using is clearly the wrong tool.
What is most unfortunate for you now, is that you have NO familiarity with the BC , reg and tank system you would be using on the 60 to 90 foot dives you are faced with. The old tool, has done nothing to condition your reflexes with this new system, it has potentially gotten you into habits that can not possibly work with the new system, and now, short of running into Pamela Anderson, your past experiences just won't help you.

I think divers who have any liklihood of "evolving" in their skills and desire for more adventure, should begin with a dive kit that allows them to grow. In this manner, they will get more and more familiar with their gear and the reflexes used with their specific gear, and this gets to be increasingly more important on the bigger adventure dives that may come their way some day.

So..take a dive kit that we can all agree on is NOT going to be smart on a serious adventure dive--whether penetrating a shipwreck to be photographed with the huge jewfish inside, or diving to 160 feet to see something so fantastic divers are "wigging out" over it...etc., something that really entails gear made for serious dives...
......If the dive kit could not intelligently be used for this dive you can imagine now, or dream about--why in the world would you want to buy this gear......gear which is clearly going to be disadvantageous in the adventures you would want for yourself in the future.
When I see someone who has dreams, who can imagine themselves getting good at whatever they like, who has a history of getting good at things that they like..I am seeing a person who does not embrace mediocrity. If this person is to become a diver, this person will be much better off with a dive kit like a Halcyon bp/w , long hose and necklace backup, than with the "tools" which would be fine for swimming pools or shallow tropical non-adventure dives. My advice is always going to be inline with helping them to achieve bigger adventures, to be able to have the more incredible experiences, and this means advising them to get the "tool" they would use down the road, now.

The longer the time they have to practice on this tool, the safer they will be on the huge adventures they dream about for some day, and the more fun they will have on these, with the increased comfort and skill that their long history of diving with the right gear and right reflexes, will foster.

Regards,
DanV

 

[hg frogman]

I think divers who have any likelihood of "evolving" in their skills and desire for more adventure, should begin with a dive kit that allows them to grow. In this manner, they will get more and more familiar with their gear and the reflexes used with their specific gear, and this gets to be increasingly more important on the bigger adventure dives that may come their way some day.

It sounds like the DIR vulgate "there is one universal setup (BP/W, long hose etc) which is optimal for any use". I don't believe it. The long hose and necklaced backup, for example, is not optimal for climbing into a zodiac in a hurry while the swell is pushing you against the reef : you can unkit and still breathe from your reg with a regular hose, a long hose is unneeded for this ; the necklaced backup takes more time to remove, and beware of not ripping off your mask in the process ; and the long hose is annoyingly long when your kit is hauled in the zodiac : you lose precious seconds hauling/taking care of it, and your primary is more likely to dangle around and be damaged in the heap of kits on the zodiac's deck. Giving your primary (and your bacterias) to a client who is a perfect stranger is not optimal for hygiena. Long hose is useless for solo diving. Etc.

As Fnfalman said, let us take the right tools for the job at hand. Let the diver be flexible and able to adapt himself to different conditions by choosing the gear that is optimal for these conditions. Not all divers are idiots who need to be programmed like robots.

Moreover, I don't mind going down to 50 meters/165 feet with an Air2. I did it already. It's not especially unsafe. The Air2 breathes all right at that depth (*). But of course, I wouldn't recommend it for penetration dives.

(*) To be factual about this : the Scubapro Air2 complies to/is certified by the European Norm for regulators. That norm checks that the regulators are functioning all right and deliver enough air at 50 meters/165 feet.

 

[danvolker]

It sounds like the DIR vulgate "there is one universal setup (BP/W, long hose etc) which is optimal for any use". I don't believe it. The long hose and necklaced backup, for example, is not optimal for climbing into a zodiac in a hurry while the swell is pushing you against the reef. Giving your primary (and your bacterias) to a client who is a perfect stranger is not optimal for hygiena. Long hose is useless for solo diving. Etc.

As Fnfalman said, let us take the right tools for the job at hand. Let the diver be flexible and able to adapt himself to different conditions by choosing the gear that is optimal for these conditions. Not all divers are idiots who need to be programmed like robots.

Moreover, I don't mind going down to 50 meters/165 feet with an Air2. I did it already. It's not especially unsafe. The Air2 breathes all right at that depth. But of course, I wouldn't recommend it for penetration dives.

Not to be argumentative but if I was about to climb on to a zodiac with my Halcyon rig and single tank setup, I could easily have the harness off me, prior to getting to the zodiac, and still be breathing off the long hose if the waves were so huge that surface breathing would be an issue....which means I could be in the zodiac in an instant, and could pull up the bp/wing right afterward, also instantly.

As to the bacteria issue..this gets to the idea of air share in general, and in specific, it gets to who you choose to buddy with--or them choosing you....Sounds like a different thread we could all argue ad nauseum

Regards,
DanV

 

[DevonDiver]

It sounds like the DIR vulgate "there is one universal setup (BP/W, long hose etc) which is optimal for any use". I don't believe it.

I agree. However, when novice divers ask for gear configuration advice, it is because they want to choose a SINGLE optimum set-up for their diving. Often they won't know how or where their diving activities will progress, so will want the most 'future proof' and adaptable set-up possible.

I'm not argueing for the suggestion of a long hose, so please discount me from that arguement. I am simply doubting that recommending AIR3 is the single best advice to give a diver.

The long hose and necklaced backup, for example, is not optimal for climbing into a zodiac in a hurry while the swell is pushing you against the reef.

It has pros and cons - as do other configurations. I feel that long hose has some good advantages in this situations (to easily breath while de-kitted), the necklaced primary is a slight disadvantage (to remove it over the mask). This is a small issue, compared to the benefits when sharing air, especially if diving in confined spaces.

Giving your primary (and your bacterias) to a client who is a perfect stranger is not optimal for hygiena. Long hose is useless for solo diving. Etc.

Compared to a secondary that has been dragged around in oily boat bottoms, through silt, across coral, through sea-weed etc etc?

Primary will work...that's proven. I'd rather be sure to give a client air when they needed it, than worry about their oral hygiene...

Long hose has benefits if you need to de-kit underwater - which is potentially a life-saver for a solo diver. Go figure....same example, different perspectives

As Fnfalman said, let us take the right tools for the job at hand. Let the diver be flexible and able to adapt himself to different conditions by choosing the gear that is optimal for these conditions. Not all divers are idiots who need to be programmed like robots.

A diver asks for advice on an internet forum. You want to suggest that they should have xxx different configurations to cope with the unique demands of any given recreational dive??

They ask for informed advice. Saying "get what you want" is just peeing in the wind. It isn't helpful. Giving reasoned, supported advice, when asked to do so, is not 'programming'.

Moreover, I don't mind going down to 50 meters/165 feet with an Air2. I did it already. It's not especially unsafe. The Air2 breathes all right at that depth. But of course, I wouldn't recommend it for penetration dives.

Just a note.... but wording like "not especially unsafe" or "breathes all right" are hardly a valid testimony if you were to recommend that option to someone.

My Scubapro Mk25 with S600 is 'very, very safe' and 'breathes superbly' at 50m. I'd recommend it for penetration dives also. I've done it many hundreds of times.

 

[danvolker]

If you anticipate ending up with a long hose/bungeed octo(and you do, if you're looking forward to cavern/cave training), why not just start off that way and skip the Air3? Since you have a BP/W to start, you'll have no problem stowing the extra hose. Until you get a can light, you can just stuff it down your waist belt in front.

I am in total agreement with Rongoodman....you can also route it under a knife scabard, or under a pocket that runs through the waiste belt. This can be very inexpensive, and it will keep the hose taught and streamlined

 

[fnfalman]

So you choose a spare Air to use "Bay Watch" style, and enjoy this for swimming pools and the occaisional outing to a 15 foot deep, well protected coral reef. It may be a fine tool for this job, god knows it did well for the Baywatch crew

I don't know. I've never watched Baywatch after the introduction part where Pamela Anderson ran in slow motion across the sand.

I think divers who have any liklihood of "evolving" in their skills and desire for more adventure, should begin with a dive kit that allows them to grow. In this manner, they will get more and more familiar with their gear and the reflexes used with their specific gear, and this gets to be increasingly more important on the bigger adventure dives that may come their way some day.

These divers wouldn't know if they were to evolve into something more than rec diving until they have a few dives under their belt. Dare I say more than a few dives under their belt. By then they'd realize that rec is all they want to do or they'd want to do more and buy the appropriate gears for the job.