Anyone else have a problem with a buddy grabbing your primary?

[jh_MacLeod]

Hi everyone,

This question was prompted by a recent experience of mine, and the recent thread on regulator hose routing.

I understand the logic: your primary is "known to be working" and a panicked, out-of-air diver is likely to fixate on it. But personally, I just don't like the idea of "teaching" people to grab the primary out of a buddy's mouth without asking. I mainly dive open water, and often get paired up with tourists/experts who happen to be passing through my region.

I've had this "out-of-nowhere grabbing" my primary happen to me once, and fortunately I had the presence of mind to calmly comply (then take, clear and use the octopus for myself). But ever since that experience, I've made a point of making it crystal clear to any new dive buddy (before getting into the water), that I will donate my "yellow" octopus, not my primary. I typically dive with a 1.2-meter hose primary (routed under my right arm) and a 1-meter yellow octopus (routed under my left arm and attached clearly to my upper right shoulder strap).

So my question, "Is it too much to ask that a buddy, who starts to experience out-of-air problems, bangs on his/her tank or somehow gets my attention, and then requests my octopus?" Or, must we all learn to comply with this "new standard" which is starting to become well-known, that all technical divers donate their long primary and that it's "acceptable" to just grab it?

If I were diving in a confined space with known buddies, of course I would use a 7-foot primary and comply with the conventional practices. But out in open water, I like to use shorter hoses; and I don't like people grabbing my primary air.

Regards,
John

 

[Teamcasa]

It's hard to predict the behavior of a OOA diver rapidly headed toward full blown panic. The good part is that once they are breathing again, you can often switch back to ascend.

 

[timle]

It is not acceptable to grab someone's primary especially in the tech realm. If you are technical diving, you are expected to stay calm and relaxed and give the out of air sign and receive the primary donation.

The grabbing of the primary comes from panicked divers that see your air bubbles and know it is a source of air - the training has left the building at this point - no matter what you told them about dontating your "octo".

It just so happens as the long hose deals with the situation effectively as you are prepared to go to your secondary and have a long enough hose if they are kicking and failing to wait their panick out or to get behind them and get control of them to bring them up.

No one I have heard of is teaching people "to grab the primary out of a buddy's mouth without asking".

 

[jh_MacLeod]

It is not acceptable to grab someone's primary especially in the tech realm. If you are technical diving, you are expected to stay calm and relaxed and give the out of air sign and receive the primary donation.

No one I have heard of is teaching people "to grab the primary out of a buddy's mouth without asking".

If the logic is to have a "controlled" exchange, then why not have a 7-foot secondary to donate?

In any case, perhaps what I experienced was the "gap" between what is "being taught" and what is "being learned". When we got back in the boat and I expressed my exasperation at having been blind-sided by having my primary yanked from my mouth, his response was that this is the way he and his regular buddies did it where he came from. But he was quite shaken by the experience; perhaps he was just trying to save face.

John

 

[mikemill]

If it is a regular occurrence then why not prepare for it? A long hose primary with bungee backup deals with this scenario quite nicely. My primary can come out of my mouth for any reason at any time and I know exactly where my backup is and takes a second to start breathing off of it.

 

[timle]

If the logic is to have a "controlled" exchange, then why not have a 7-foot secondary to donate?

Because your primary is known good working and your buddy is probably wanting to take a breath really soon now. You are in better shape to deal with an issue should you switch to your secondary and discover it not working.

his response was that this is the way he and his regular buddies did it where he came from.

The regularly ran out of air? ouch I would have been even more POd.

But he was quite shaken by the experience; perhaps he was just trying to save face.

This seems much more likely - no one wants to admit they were panicked or near panick. If you read this board many people have been mugged for their primary - I doubt any of those muggers were trained to do so - but they NEEDED air and a known good source (with bubbles coming from it!) was close at hand.

I dive a long hose in caves because of the physical makeup on the environment - doing an air share in single file line is possible through a tight section of cave - or single file on the line because the lights are out.

I dive a long hose in open water - because I like having the extra length for an air share anyways - and for potential muggings and the extra options the long hose opens up to me - instead of having this mugger stuck within a few inches of me.

 

[timle]

Forgot to add the "logic" is to have a controlled exchange - it which case you can choose to donate the primary.

In the non-optimal someone takes your regulator without asking/signing/etc, (blindsiding you and you don't even know its coming) I believe it more likely them will take my primary. Planning to donate the primary works just as well in a controlled exchange versus an non-controlled exchange - the same is not true for an extremely short primary.

 

[deich]

Punch em in the ear... They wont do it again

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hi everyone,

This question was prompted by a recent experience of mine, and the recent thread on regulator hose routing.

I understand the logic: your primary is "known to be working" and a panicked, out-of-air diver is likely to fixate on it. But personally, I just don't like the idea of "teaching" people to grab the primary out of a buddy's mouth without asking. I mainly dive open water, and often get paired up with tourists/experts who happen to be passing through my region.

I've had this "out-of-nowhere grabbing" my primary happen to me once, and fortunately I had the presence of mind to calmly comply (then take, clear and use the octopus for myself). But ever since that experience, I've made a point of making it crystal clear to any new dive buddy (before getting into the water), that I will donate my "yellow" octopus, not my primary. I typically dive with a 1.2-meter hose primary (routed under my right arm) and a 1-meter yellow octopus (routed under my left arm and attached clearly to my upper right shoulder strap).

So my question, "Is it too much to ask that a buddy, who starts to experience out-of-air problems, bangs on his/her tank or somehow gets my attention, and then requests my octopus?" Or, must we all learn to comply with this "new standard" which is starting to become well-known, that all technical divers donate their long primary and that it's "acceptable" to just grab it?

If I were diving in a confined space with known buddies, of course I would use a 7-foot primary and comply with the conventional practices. But out in open water, I like to use shorter hoses; and I don't like people grabbing my primary air.

Regards,
John

The only times I have ever had this happen are in training classes ... but those were higher-level classes that were designed for more experienced divers. The few times I have had to deal with OOA/LOA situations it wasn't necessary because I was donating the reg before they got close enough to reach for it.

That said ... the idea isn't to train for what SHOULD happen, but to train for what CAN happen ... and there are no assurances that someone who runs out of air won't be stressed to a point where they forget everything they were ever trained to do and simply go for a known source of air. If you aren't prepared to deal with it, that situation can lead to a cascading series of actions that ultimately end up badly for both of you.

What you don't like has nothing to do with it ... I don't like removing my mask in salt water, because I know it's going to make my eyes sting and water for a couple minutes after I put it back on and clear it ... but I also knew it was an essential safety skill that I had to train myself how to perform calmly and flawlessly. Same goes for air-sharing exercises. People who run out of air are seldom aware that it's about to happen, and the shock and surprise of suddenly not being able to breathe will often cause them to do something unpredictable. Best you be prepared for dealing with it ... because if it should happen, you won't have the option of telling them that's not how it's supposed to work ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I don't think anybody is TEACHING people to swim up and yank the reg out of someone's mouth. But I think it is something that people who are out of gas have been known to do (from reading stories on this board for over four years now). The well-trained, experienced buddy who has stayed close to you and goes head-down to look at something and gets his dip tube clogged may well calmly signal and wait for your octo. But the inexperienced diver who's gotten distracted and forgotten to check their gas, who takes that last suck out of the tank, looks around, and discovers you're the nearest diver AND YOU AREN'T VERY CLOSE is most likely going to reach you and grab the easiest thing to see. Because, if you are in a horizontal position, that octo in the "triangle" is not nearly as easy to spot as the regulator in your mouth.

I like diving a system which is optimized for both contingencies.